18: Louiza “Weeze” Doran, on Liberation, Future Generations, and Leaving Well
“Do you actually need to leave or do you need better boundaries with yourself and then maybe even better boundaries with your workplace? Have you had the conversations with yourself and then with the workplace?” - Louiza ‘Weeze’ Doran on Leaving Well
Louiza “Weeze” Doran first began her community oriented work as an equity and liberation educator, strategist, and speaker with a healing centered and humanity first ethos. Featured in the New York times, Forbes, Buzzfeed, and many more. She's a multifaceted and multi hyphenated person, which gives her the wiggle room to be all that she is and any one piece of herself at any given moment. Weeze is known for her kind and compassionate yet direct approach with a perpetual focus on collective liberation.
As she says, we liberate others by way of our own liberation. Weeze is a boxing enthusiast, coffee aficionado, dog mama, beach baby, music lover, and so much more.
“We have a profound responsibility, not just to the next generations, but the ones who are, who are sharing this earth with us right now, to be better stewards, of information and of modeled behavior.”
Additional Quotes:
I'm actually not interested in changing systems. I'm interested in changing people. Because if you change enough people, then systems and cultures inherently change.
Tending to yourself does not fly in the face of liberation, and in fact, tending to yourself is deeply revolutionary. Tending to yourself is literally what liberation is about. And so, whatever, wherever you're at, in your life, in your career, take one step today to take better care of your mental, emotional, psychological, physical well being, that is one step towards liberation. Choose a new step every day.
To connect with Weeze or learn more about her work:
Weeze on Substack
Weeze on Instagram
Weeze’s website
Take the Workplace Transition Archetype Quiz.
To learn more about Leaving Well, click here.
My Bookshop.org Leaving Well library has many resources to support your workplace transition journey!
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This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
Transcript:
We have a profound responsibility, not just to the next generations, but the ones who are, who are sharing this earth with us right now to be better stewards. Right, of information and of modeled behavior.
This is Leaving Well, where we unearth and explore the realities of leaving a job, role, project, or title with intention and purpose, and when possible, joy. I'm Naomi Hadaway, your host. I will bring you experiences and lessons learned about necessary endings in the workplace, with nuanced takes from guests on topics such as grief.
Confidence, leadership, and career development braided throughout will be solo episodes sharing my best practices and leaving well framework. Expect to be inspired, challenged, and reminded that you too can embed and embody the art and practice of leaving well as you seek to leave your imprint in this world.
Louisa Weeze Duran first began her community oriented work as an equity and liberation educator, strategist, and speaker with a healing centered and humanity first ethos. Featured in the New York Times, Forbes, BuzzFeed, and many more, she's a multifaceted and multi hyphenated person, which gives her the wiggle room to be all that she is and any one piece of herself at any given moment.
Weeze is known for her kind and compassionate, yet direct approach with a perpetual focus on collective liberation. As she says, we liberate others by way of our own liberation. Weeze is a boxing enthusiast, coffee aficionado, dog mama, beach baby, music lover, and so much more. Weeze, I'm so glad that you're joining me and I would love to just jump right in and have you tell us a little about one of your own transition and change stories.
Well, I'm in the midst of one right now. So as you so beautifully told the people, I have spent the last while, nearly a decade. You know, some people call it a coach. I am not a fan of the word. So I prefer guide and educator, but, um, a guide and educator strategist, really working with people and organizations and, you know, schools doing personal liberation, uh, systemic liberation, right.
Anti oppression work, anti racism work. And over the last. Three years since the Great White Awakening in the summer of 2020, you know, we had a, this beautiful explosion of empathy and compassion and interest in the work. And then there was then the, what I'm calling the Great White Ghosting, which, uh, frankly is now It's, it's even worse than it was before the Great White Awakening.
I have still yet to completely put my finger on why that is, right? As a, uh, my academic background is a, as a sociologist and behavioral scientist. So in those veins, I like to like collect data and watch a little bit more before I give my opinion as to why, but what I know is that it is, that's the reality.
And in that reality, You know, not just the fact that people are necessarily not financially committing to this work, but there seems to be a real energetic resistance to the work that didn't exist in the way that it does now, prior. I, I always say the, you know, the ancestors and the universe work the way that they're supposed to.
Uh, in 2021, I applied, or I submitted all the paperwork necessary to start my foundation, the Asafa Collective. You know, I knew it was going to take a long while and it didn't get approved until the end of 2022. And so I've been in this unfortunate space that a lot of us are in right now in the world of like, oh, life is lifing and the economy is not getting.
better. And we're definitely in the midst of a silent depression. So I can't just like full transition to just running the foundation. And, you know, so trying to find that balance between continuing to do this work that I've done for so long, but really wanting to focus on the foundation and the youth and the next generation and providing the support that I so desperately know they need and, and, you know, and wanting to provide.
So all of that to say, I made a decision about three weeks ago that was like, listen, it's time to buckle up, baby. It might be hard. You know, it's a little scary when you're like, I'm just going to not resign clients because I need to create the energetic capacity to really focus on this, this next phase.
Um, so, you know, full transparency, I'm doing the scary thing right now, but it, it is so critical and so important. Not, not just because of, you know, of the economy and all the things that are happening, but because of the energetic shift that has really happened around liberation work where people either seem disinterested.
Yeah. Overwhelmed, just life, like I said, life is life for everyone and getting in the way, you know, of, of being able to see outside of, of themselves in this moment and I completely understand that. The, the work that we're going to do with the foundation with the, the collective is, is just so important.
And so, yeah, I'm just, I'm. Jumping headfirst into it, and I don't know what that means for, you know, baby got a mortgage and a dog and a cell phone bill and all the other things. But I also, I also believe that, you know, sometimes you have to walk by whatever your faith is, walk by faith and trust in your skill set and just do the thing when you know it's right.
Do you think that your relationship to transition and change is different now that you're in the middle of this really big one? Does it match what you would have said a year ago? If you would ask me a couple years ago, I would say the answer is completely different. A couple years ago, before I really committed to my own liberation work in the way that I have now and, and really integrated it and it became a full practice, right?
Cause it's a reflexive muscle, like you got to use it to strengthen it. Um, so when it was still like a little baby weakling muscle. The, the answer would have been completely different. It would have been, you don't take risks unless you have the plan and like, you have to have all of the things covered and you have to know, right?
There was this, this idea of a required knowing, and I think part of it comes with age. Part of it comes with liberation work that now I can say I, I re I can recognize the emotions and the nervous system reaction that's happening, but I have an acceptance around the like, I don't know. I don't know how it's going to happen.
I don't have all the answers. Uh, what I do know is enough for me to trust in the decision though, right? So I know that I've got me, I know that I have a support system that is in right reciprocal relationship with, you know, with me, I've, I've got the skill sets necessary and I trust in, in those things.
And at the end of the day, I also know that I've been. In dire straits before. Been paycheck to paycheck. I've been, I don't know where, what the next paycheck is going to look like before in my life. And I've always figured it out. So I also trust in that ability, right? Like I really have this, um, get it up out the mud kind of mentality that I think coming up.
Lower socioeconomic class and, and moving through, through that kind of ladder up and down because it's not fixed, right? And having, you know, multiple marginalized identities in, in this world. Unfortunately, it's like, right? It's, you, you develop that, that kind of ref Reality of like, well, it's either you or me and it's not going to be me.
So like, I'm like, I'm always going to be all right. So that's interesting when you're talking about that, that navigating the ladder. I know as well. And I wonder if there's something there has to be something that is matching in the reason why the great white ghosting is happening. When you said also you have to use it or you lose it, or you have to use it to strengthen it.
And so if we have, if there's been no encouragement, or there's been an emboldening almost to not have to stick with liberation and justice and equity practices, why would anyone, what would you say to folks who are kind of in the same boat where they're embedded deeply into movement building or advocacy work or justice work across whatever field sector industry it might be?
What would you say to them if they're finding themselves at a crossroads? Thank you. Where it is scary to make a change. Maybe leaving is the right thing. Maybe they haven't been treated well. Maybe there's folks in power and leadership that are working against them. Yeah. Yeah. So the, the first thing that I kind of like counsel people to do is have a really honest, what I call like a come to Beyonce, right?
Like have this moment with yourself and granted, we can't ever take. financial safety and stability out of the, out of the equation. But if we put it on pause for a moment, really checking in with yourself of like, what is my work life balance? Do I have the space for rest, for joy, for peace? Am I truly enjoying my life?
And not in a way of like, Oh, I get to travel. Right. But like, do I have the capacity for it? And if the answer is no. Then the question becomes what is getting in the way and 99 percent of the time it is unfortunately because so much of our life in, in Western societies and specifically in the US is work, right?
Like we don't, we don't work to live. We live to work in this country. That's, that's how we've been socialized because that's the thing getting in the way, right? Then I typically will tell people like, Write yourself a letter, right? Or, or like, have a really honest moment with yourself. Cause it's easier when we can step outside of ourselves and like, you know, talk to ourselves.
What would you want for yourself? Would it be waking up every day and hating where you're going? Or going a place and not being treated well? And, you know, all of the things? Not being able to rest? Burnout, overwhelm. No, I'm going to guarantee it's not. Nobody, nobody wants that. Right. And so like, so that's the first thing I say.
The next thing I say is you need to really, really start to get curious around your relationship to productivity, your relationship to like worth as it is tied to productivity and question why you're willing to stay somewhere, even if it isn't movement building. that doesn't actually honor the ethos of any movement I've ever seen before, right?
Like, no liberation movement has ever said, yeah, works, work in a place that, you know, is effectively toxic or makes you unhappy or steals your joy, steals your life, steals your humanity. What are we building for? Yeah. Right. And we can't take care of others if we can't take care of ourselves. Yeah. So that's, that's kind of the, the, the basis, because I think when people can start to reorient to that, it makes it a lot easier to then do the scary thing.
Cause we can't ever remove the scary from the equation. It also makes me wonder then if there's a deeper question as well around, is this actually movement building? Is this actually justice work? Then once we write that letter to ourselves and dig a little deeper into what is the work we're actually showing.
Unpopular opinion. Most of y'all that work in movements and nonprofits or foundations are actually just replicating systems of oppression and systems of whiteness. I hate to break it to y'all. It's an, it's an industrial complex like every other complex. Yeah. I would say it's even more toxic sometimes because there's that layer of.
Help and the layer of systems change when it's actually not happening. Yeah. So there's a layer of where we gaslight ourselves and or because the organizations that we are a part of are replicating systems of whiteness. They're using shame, guilt, and gaslighting to keep us in this, in this really toxic cycle.
AB, there's what I call the um, of service martyrdom syndrome. Right. I used to just call it like the nonprofit, but it's like, there's so many different kinds of movements now where it's like, it's the, of service martyrdom syndrome, where we are literally made to believe, and this is on purpose, right? This is by design.
We are made to believe that. If you are going to be of service, then you are supposed to be able to take everything on the chin. You, you are, if you do not, if you are incapable of carrying the weight of the world, and doing it without rest, and doing it without, you know, stepping away for a little bit and taking care of yourself, then you're not doing it right, and something's wrong with you.
And you should also be able to do it, And only make a dollar and a half an hour and how dare you want more money because now you're a capitalist right like it's so toxic and it's so problematic and it creates a space. We've mastered the perception of liberation and equity, but because we don't have the integrity of the actual elements and pillars of liberation work.
Then it just becomes a much nicer looking system of oppression. It becomes a much nicer looking one, and it also, I think, breeds the grounds for people to never leave the work, which means you're also not raising your hand to say, I'll tap out so that someone else can come in. That's why we have founders.
That are at nonprofits for 10, 15, 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. That's a problem. Yeah. A hundred percent. What would you say around boundaries then? Because, you know, boundaries inside of that work, if that's what you, you feel like you're called to do, it might be a lot for someone to listen to what you're saying and be like, all right, then I'm out.
You're right. Like I hear you. We need to like come to terms. I need to have a come to Beyonce, come to Jesus, but then they still have to go to work tomorrow, or they still have to do something that. takes them on a path of maybe leaving well or exiting out. So what do we do in the meantime? Is it boundaries?
Is it something else? Yeah, so I think it's a combination of things. I think, yes, boundaries. However, I'm actually less interested when I talk, when I, like, guide people through this work, I'm less interested in the, like, how are you advocating for yourself? You know, and how are you upholding boundaries in the workplace?
That's a secondary question. My first question is, what are your boundaries like with yourself? Do you have healthy boundaries with yourself? Do you have healthy conversations with yourself? Because you can say all day long, your body can be screaming at you like, you're tired, you actually have been working 11 days straight, you need to take a day off, and your your employer very well might not expect you, I mean they shouldn't, right?
Like, doesn't expect you to work on Saturdays and Sundays. Those are actually your days. But we do it anyways. But we do it anyways. There's nobody in your house requiring you to open your computer when you're sitting at breakfast at the table. So what are your boundaries with yourself? What conversations are you having with yourself?
Why don't you give yourself the permission to delineate between work time and personal time? When your body is telling you what you need, what narrative is keeping you from listening? What do you need to re pattern or re learn so that you can honor the things that your mind, body, spirit are telling you?
Thank you. If you cannot tend to your physical, emotional, spiritual, psychological health, like internally, it doesn't really matter what you tell anybody else, right? Because you can tell your boss, it's five o'clock. Mm mm. Y'all pay me from nine to five. Goodbye. Yeah, but you still went home and opened your phone and got on Slack, right?
Like so it doesn't it doesn't really matter because your boss might honor that and and so here's another Unpopular opinion that we don't like to say out loud. Sometimes. It's actually not your boss. Sometimes. It's not your workplace Sometimes you are actually your own worst enemy in that regard But it is so hard for us to accept that we're doing that to ourselves.
So then we project it out Yeah. And we say, Oh, it's this workplace. Is it? Sometimes it is like, to be fair. Absolutely. Right. Capitalism, corporate capitalism 1000 percent is exploitative and extractive. But you, you know, I love the but and also in the nuance, right? And we have to be able to hold the reality that multiple things are true at once.
Yes, we do work in environments that are exploitative and also we've been socialized to exploit ourselves for an, you know, an array of different reasons. Everyone's reasons are going to be different, even though our root causations might all be the same, right? But we are also participating in that. And so you might have a boss that's like, no, no, no, no, you're off by you're actually the one dishonoring your own boundaries.
Not only that, but it makes me think. Like, yes to everything you just said. And then it also makes me think that if we are in movement building, being of service, all those places, we are perpetuating the very thing that we're most often saying that we're not here for. So we're furthering, furthering and perpetuating the exploitation by.
Look at an email on the subway home after we just told our boss, no, I'm done at five. Yeah, that's, that's a powerful realization. How does that play into then legacy? So if we think of movement building advocacy work, all of those things, how does this play into legacy and what we, and maybe you have something to say about our personal responsibility to legacy and our social, social economic legacy, but I'm curious what you would say around.
Yeah. So I have a little bit of a, uh, so I'll just name how I view legacy first. Cause I actually in recent years have realized that I'm not, I don't talk about legacy. Like I'll have conversations with people who were values aligned ethos on all the things. And we're like, Oh, we're talking about legacy in different ways.
So for me, when I talk about legacy, I talk about the lasting impact that you have on any single individual human being. The kid who is in line at the grocery store behind you, who's A dollar short to buy their meal and they're at university, you know what I mean? And you're like, you know what? I got it.
Like, and you pay for it. That is a moment of legacy that that single individual is going to remember that moment of kindness and compassion and humanity for the rest of their life. Guaranteed, right? They might not remember exactly your face. They might not ever remember your name, but they are going to remember that moment.
That's legacy. And so the reason that I think about it like that is because I really live my life in a li right in this liberatory framework that I teach people. So for me, I'm like, I already left a legacy. I could do nothing else. I could never have started the foundation, never have started a podcast, not have my name in New York Ti wherever else.
No one could ever know my name, and the legacy that I have left because of how I live my life. Those are, those are the moments that then carry on, because that same kid is gonna grow up, and that kid is gonna remember that random adult, that random chicken line at, you know, Safeway, or wherever you're at in the world, your grocery store, that did that.
And then they might carry that on, right? When there's a kid who's in a moment, in a moment of need. And remembers the impact that it had on them and is like, you know what? I got you. I'll buy your dinner. I'll buy your groceries. Whatever the case is. That's legacy. Yeah. Yeah. Right? And so when I think about it like that, you don't have to be rich.
You don't have to have expendable income. You just have to be community oriented. You have to be people first minded. You have to have empathy. You have to have compassion. You have to have kindness. Not niceness. Yeah, those are different. I'm so tired. I don't give a shit if you're nice. I really don't. My time in New York especially reaffirmed that, because people growing up in California, people are like, you're not always very nice, and I'm like, no, I'm direct.
Don't ask me questions you don't want answers to. A. B, I'm, I'm, I've always, because I was raised by a mother who was Deeply kind, you know, so she modeled that for me. I've always, I've always said I'm deeply kind, right? And that's the difference as an aside difference between New York and California.
California is very nice, but not very kind. New Yorkers might not be quote unquote nice, but they are some of the kindest people. Thinking about legacy too, and the detaching of our name to it makes me think too around sometimes part of your legacy is knowing when to go. You know, and, and making the decision and having decision confidence around your work there being done.
Uh, and I'm curious if you have thoughts or if you have advice around. Knowing when it is time to go, knowing when it's time to pivot knowing when you should stay. So, I, I never in my life thought that I would be quoting Mitt Romney. Okay, I'm just just follow me for a 2nd y'all. I promise. Mitt Romney recently, and I'm going to paraphrase because it was, uh, you know, a long interview.
Mitt Romney recently said that the reason he was stepping down from politics, even though he still has all his faculties and is, you know, really plugged in and, you know, useful for his age, that he is at an age where the world as it is. basically a suits him, but also he is too far removed from the generations that are going to inherit the decisions.
That they are making right now and the act, I know, I know, listen, y'all can't see Naomi's face, but that's the face that I made. I was like, what do we agree? So when you are doing anything, whether it's leadership, you know, whether you're in leadership, whether you're just, you have a position in a, in a movement, in an organization.
And you recognize that your decision making or your actions, your behavior. are going to leave a lasting impact on community, culture, policy, structure, politics, whatever the case is, and you're further removed from those that are really plugged into the needs, the current true needs, it's time to step aside.
That's when you become an auntie. Like, I feel like I've hit auntie, auntie age. And I, and I love it. I'm, you know, I'm gonna be 38 actually in like ex exactly a month. So, you know, by all means, I'm not old. I'm not calling myself old by any means. But, for the life that I've lived, and how long I've been doing this work, I've hit auntie age.
It's time for me... To support the next generation. It's time for me to create spaces for them to come and ask questions. And are we allowed to cuss on this podcast? Yes, absolutely. And fuck it up. And you know, and know that they can go somewhere and be like, yo, I don't know if this is right. This is wrong.
And provide counsel and guidance and emotional and mental support. And, and a place to, for them to, you know, be human and learn from my mistakes. And that's my role now, right? My role is to say, how do I help you next generation continue this work? I want to pass the baton while I am still energetically youthful enough.
To guide y'all and usher the next generation into carrying that baton with the skills and the support and the confidence necessary. Yeah. Yeah. That's when it's time to step away, right? When you still got it, like you still, you still got it. You could do it. But for what? Yeah. Well, and there's something to be said to you about the whole.
So I'm 47. I always have to stop and think for a minute and I'm squarely in the second half of my life. And that's assuming I make it to like, you know, 90, 95. Yeah. And so if I haven't already done. The thing so like Wednesday is my favorite day of the week and it's my favorite because I either have enough time to still get something right.
If I fucked around the first part of the week, or if it's the side and I've been busy and booked and doing my work, then I have some time to rest. And I feel like that's where I am in my life right now is like, I'm at my Wednesday of have I already done what I said I would do and what I came here to do what I've been placed here to do.
And so if I have, then where should I sit on my hand instead of keeping it up in the air and saying, I'll do it. Yeah. I'll do it. And I think that takes leadership. And so Mitt's comment about, I mean, he was, he knew in himself that he was not connected. And he also probably knew in his heart of hearts that there was someone else smarter and more ready, all those things.
So I love that you're onto stage Wednesday, powerful. Where do values come into all of this for you around knowing your work, knowing when it's time, knowing when to show up, having boundaries, all the things. Yeah, my, I mean, my values are in everything that I do. When I started my own healing and liberation journey, I was...
27? Yeah. I mean, I, let me, let me be clear. I have had the val these values and the integrity of these values since... as long as I can remember. I was raised by parents who were very, very clear. You know, and I was raised in the Bay Area. Oakland has a very clear history of activism and disruption and, you know, all of the things.
So I've had those values forever. But I'm not exempt, just like nobody else is, from being socialized into systems of oppression to having, you know, we all swim in the waters, right, from absorbing narratives around worth and productivity and competitiveness and all of those things. And so 27 is the moment that I really, that I realized, um, through a variety of life experiences.
That the values that I hold and have were actually in direct conflict with how I was taught to live my life and what success meant and what community meant and, and all of those things. And so I made a very conscientious choice to, to pivot and to do the really hard work of the unlearning and the relearning and the, you know, the healing and so on and so forth.
So I will say since then, every single decision that I make, every single thing that I do is inherently values aligned, is rooted in those values, is rooted in a liberation ethos because that is truly how I live my life. And not to say that it's easy, you know, I, I have conversations with friends of mine all the time where it's like you sometimes have to really sit down and pick the lesser of the liberatory evils, because sometimes there are no liberatory choices that are really in full alignment.
Right? So it's okay. Given the society that we live in. What decision can I make that aligns closest to my values that's going to let me sleep at night and not feel cringe, right? Like, not feel gross about it. Yeah, every single thing, right? Even the decision right now to step into the foundation and really, I'll continue to do, you know, the, the coaching and the consulting.
On a much smaller scale, because I don't think I can ever fully step away from it. I just, you know, it's so much part of what I love to do every single day and supporting people in their journeys. And I'll still be doing that with the kids, you know, through the Asafa collective, but transitioning to really like now having the title title of like founder and executive director and really like mentor auntie, because that's what I'm going to, I'm like, I'm not a mentor.
I'm an auntie. I like that title better. That would be an amazing title by the way, to have as a foundation founder. Oh yeah. Auntie. I love it. Yeah. And so, you know, stepping into that is really because of that values alignment, right? It's where can I be the most effective now for the community? Yeah. Where, how can I use.
My skills and my resources to expand opportunity, but also move the needle of equity forward. I could easily keep doing the thing. I'm, I'm in the middle of tech land. You know what I mean? Like I could easily keep doing the workshops for the techies and. For what? That's going to be someone else's work.
Someone else. Absolutely. Enjoy yourself. Like, cool. There's enough people doing this type of work. Um, but for me, that just, that doesn't feel values aligned anymore. Come full circle back to the beginning of this podcast. I'm like, y'all aren't applying it anymore. Y'all probably archive the black square posts.
Like you're not really interested. I think they just really doing it in archive. They just probably, yeah, they just full deleted. Right. It's like, We've been having the same workshops for how many years and your systems and policies and culture is still not changing. Like, it's not that I'm giving up on them, but again, it's like, it's that moment of knowing the amount of money.
That obviously one makes working with these types of companies compared to, you know, doing foundation work, we know there's a huge disparity there and I'm going from depending on corporations to pay invoices to community members and people to donate to a foundation and I don't know, maybe Google, you can donate to, but, but Because of my values alignment, right, this is the question of like just the trusting and the knowing and the following the path and having faith in the path is this is what my values lead me here.
My values say, sure, you could, you know, probably make more money, continue to make more money doing a thing. But to what end? Right? Because if it was about the money, if I was, if I didn't have a people over profit ethos, I would keep doing that. But I am not interested. Because that's not what's going to best serve the community and the collective.
Values also can help the journey back to center be a little shorter when you find yourself off. And I hear that in what you're talking about in having lived according to your values for so long. It also helps keep you that much tighter and closer to what it is you need to be doing next. Because you, you can't get that far off of center when you're living in accordance and operationalizing your values.
Yeah, that's why it's really easy for me to say no to a lot of things that might look shiny. Um, I can do a really quick values check. On the organization on the offer on whatever, and I'm like, I am no, thank you. I can't do it. Well, I think that goes, you know, when we were talking earlier about the companies and the corporations and the people who have said, and I don't really know if this justice work is for me.
I don't know if equity is something we really need to focus on. It's that I think we have gotten so used to having values be up on someone's wall, and then we just let that be it. And I think it's a new thing for a lot of people to realize, like, oh, we each have personal values, and that's how we make our decisions on how we, what we buy, what movies we see, what people we surround ourselves with, all the things.
And I'm, I'm glad that you brought that up about like, they're in you. You just, we have to stay connected to them. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I mean, I say, and people think it's wild, but I'm like, it's, it's down to like, What content are you consuming on social media? A follow is, is an endorsement. If I, I mean, even friends of mine, the moment that I realize we are out of, like, true values alignment, not like, oh, we just practice certain different things or maybe we have difference of opinions.
Like, values? Like, it's very easy for me, you know, unfollow. Like, I can't. And I know some people are like, Oh, it's not a big deal. It's just social media. Maybe when it first came out, when like we were in undergrad, you know, but it's such a large part of the way that we communicate, the way that we assign value, the way that we endorse things, we can't say that anymore, right?
Yeah. It controls what we, like, if we like, and give that credence, that value to it, then it also comes back to us. Yeah. And that's, that's hella messy. And also how many other people see it too. Is there anything about change, transition, leaving things that people might be shocked or surprised to hear you say?
That might be a, that might be tall order to ask you to say something that would shock people. Please, but. I feel, I feel, I know, I'm like, I feel, I actually don't think anything I say is shocking. It's just truth. And then it's surprising when people come back and they're like, Oh, you said that out loud?
And I'm like, yes, of course, because it's the truth. I know. I think this, this will maybe shock people only in that because I... And liberation rooted and the things that I teach about like grace and closing the door but not locking it on people, so on and so forth. You know the joke online, people are like, oh my toxic trait and it's not really that toxic.
Like, so I joke about the fact that my toxic trait is the second that I decide that you no longer have a place in my life, you cease to exist. My God, my God brother sent me a meme of like a light switch and it was like the reference. Yeah, exactly. And it was like somebody literally just like, it was like, now you see me now you don't or whatever.
And it was like, he was like, this is how you be just like flip off the light. And I think that surprises people. That's even in my own life, like in real life, people are surprised because I also think we have a really unhealthy way of interacting with people where, like, we think that when someone's like, yo, here's, here's how I would like you to treat me.
Here are my boundaries. And then they like, stomp all over those boundaries that you're just going to like, you're joking when you're like how you no longer get access to me. Right. But I'm very, like, I don't, I don't fuckin play. When I did, when you've shown me that you no longer are in right reciprocal relationship with me, cannot, for whatever reason, cannot, uh, you know, honor my boundaries, or are just, you just no longer, I feel, deserve access to me, literally, you don't exist.
I'll see you on the street. I won't even I won't speak. I'm not like super rude. If you like, have the audacity to come up and speak to me, like, I'll say hello. I'll be civil, but literally, that's it. Hi, I'm well, have a nice day. Imagine, imagine if we didn't hold on to decisions as long as we do, and we apply that in the places that.
We show up to because we hold on to decisions so long, so long, we go back and forth and then we, you know, make it mean all these things and we make pros and cons lists. And I think that is probably as we're talking, I'm realizing, like, you asked me, like, what also, like, the difference in transition that's been the biggest.
Game changer for me in trans in transitionary periods in my life is that I have learned to trust Self I have I have really done a lot of work to integrate my mind and my body So now I have intellectual experiences and somatic experiences and I I connect them They're always talking to each other. And so because of that I mean, I can talk, I could probably talk myself out of a brown paper bag, but if somatically like if, if I have like an empowered or like an embodied, like yes or no, like I don't question, I can figure it out later.
Yeah, but it's a yes or no for me. And because I trust in that, when I have that embodied or somatic information come through in the different ways that I understand my own body right and nervous system, I don't question it. My body is knowing, and I also hold the belief that it is also deeply informed by, right, like, generations that have come before me and the ancestors and all the things, so I'm like, I'm not, who am I to then makes me wonder, as you say that, and this might not be where you're going, so correct me, it also comes back to then our responsibilities as ancestors.
To make the right decisions based on values, based on all the things, because if we're informed by our ancestors, which I know that we are, are we being the right kind of ancestors for who comes after us if we stay, if we don't have solid decisions based on values. So I'm just, I'm going to have to sit on that one for a little bit.
Yeah, I say yes. And I actually, not, not just that far out, right? Like, yes, absolutely. The things and decisions that we make in absolutely impact, right? And so this is legacy. The decision that I make right now will impact the, my literal lineage, whether they know my name or not, even in so far as the younger generations that are present while we are still on this earth and on this planet that are watching us make decisions.
That are hearing how we talk about ourselves, how we talk about our workplaces, how we talk about our relationship to rest and joy and peace and all of those other things. We are deeply responsible to that next generation, whether we're responsible for raising them or not, right? Whether there are actual littles or they're just a kid at a coffee shop sitting next to us.
They are taking in information all the time and they're too young quite yet to understand it at the emotional level that in which we're, you know, talking about it obviously because of the age gaps. But that does have an impact on their socialization and on their understanding and how they begin to understand the world.
We are deeply responsible for that next generation, even just in the way we carry ourselves energetically. Right? I tell friends of mine all the time who this is, you know, a little heavy, but Friends who are contemplating, for example, divorce from their partner. And they're like, Oh, well, we don't want, we want to stay together for the kids.
And I'm like, I'm sorry, your child is four and 1000 percent understands that their parents don't like each other. And that there is an energetic difference in how their parents engage. There's a heaviness. Do you know what that does to the nervous system and the development system of a child? It is actually better for your child to see you separate and uncouple in a healthy way.
And then see healthy and a healthy example of co parenting and, you know, and then get to see you happy and joyous and taking care of yourself. That is far healthier and better for the child. No. But we only think about, you know, what am I teaching them? And if I'm not talking to them directly, like they're fine.
Oh, we are living ancestors right now. We have a profound, in my belief, we have a profound responsibility. Not just to the next generations, but the ones who are, who are sharing this earth with us right now. To be better stewards, right, of information and of modeled behavior. That makes me wonder a little bit for kind of as we start to wrap up.
As we have that great responsibility, then how does that parlay for you with kind of going back to the beginning of if we're in really important work. And our body somatically, we know we need to go. Is there a way that someone can check in with themselves? Is there something that you would offer for someone to, to just like live in accordance to who you are as a living ancestor, live in accordance to who you are based on your value system.
And if someone's still like, I know, but I can't leave. Well, I can't make that decision. What would you say to that person listening? Yeah, so the 1st question. It's very similar to, you know, I, I kind of already laid it out, but the first question is do you actually need to leave or do you need better boundaries with yourself and then maybe even better boundaries with your workplace?
Yeah. Have you had the conversations with yourself and then with the workplace? Because again, I'm a fan of unpopular opinions. Sometimes the people that are leading us actually, one, don't have other models for what leadership looks like because they've never been taught it. And two, they don't even realize that what they're doing is exploitative or extractive or harmful because it is so the status quo.
And sometimes they need a mirror held up to themselves. Now, obviously, if the response that you get when you try to share those things is, is like, you're fired, suck it up, this is how it is. Then that lets you know that is really, like, that is actually the, that's the vibe of the place, right? Like, those are the blocks that it's built on.
It's just not a, a healthy or positive place to be. Yeah. Right? So the next question I always ask is, well, why can't you leave? Is it financial stability, right? Economic burden? Maybe you're taking care of a lot of people. Total reality. And, cool, that's what, you know, you can plan, you can strategize. This is where you have a choice to actually lean into your liberation ethos, right?
Your liberation framework is reaching out to community, asking for support to like mastermind a plan or if people have work opportunities, right? Whatever the thing is. Thank you. Because a workplace that is going to treat you like that and stands on that doesn't care about you anyways. So this whole notion of like, you, they deserve two weeks or any of that goes out the window.
They don't care about you. Take care of yourself. Right? Once they've let you know that, take care of yourself. So, if the reason you can't leave is the economic stuff, right? Have a plan. Have a job. Ready to go. Right? Have a, have an exit strategy. If it's narratives and socialization, Then it's either, right, depending on your resources and, and what's available to you, whether it's a therapist, a coach, podcasts, a book, getting the support to really dive deep.
And look at where your existing narratives are actually rooted in oppression and rooted in your own dehumanization, because that's what they are, right? That's what we've been taught to do. And where do you need to divest and repattern and create new beliefs and then integrate them? Takes longer and that takes a while and it definitely requires support, right?
Maybe even having like an accountability buddy so that the days where you're like, I just got to suck it up and do this because of all these scary things, or it's scarier to do the work than to just leave. You know, you have a friend that's like, uh, no, you hate it there. You, you deserve better, right? Like whatever it is that you need to hear.
So those would be the first things that I suggest again, notice that both of those things require reaching outside of yourself, asking for support, leaning on your community. Figuring out what it is that you need. And sometimes it's also both of those things, right? And so getting the support necessary to be able to, to do that.
Um, because the reality is there are a lot of places that are doing whatever the movement is, right? Justice work around that movement that are not reproducing systems of oppression. And this is the hardest pill to swallow. Sometimes you have to accept. That maybe you just need to get a quote unquote regular job and just commit your life fully to living in a liberatory way and advocating for whatever the thing is, whatever that particular movement is, maybe just volunteering so that you can detach, but not creating a reality where it's so deeply intertwined with your financial You're Stability and safety so that you don't so your lizard brain isn't always under threat, right?
So your nervous system isn't always processing it as literal survival. And I wonder too about so that your liberations for yourself first, like you said, and not just for the movement. Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I mean, that, we liberate others by way of our own liberation. And I tell people all the time, I'm actually not interested in changing systems.
And they're like, what? That's wild. And I'm like, no, I'm interested in changing people. Because if you change enough people, then systems and cultures inherently change. Is there anything else you want to say that feels important, relevant to this conversation? I think I would just leave people with, like, if you took nothing else from this, tending to yourself is never, ever going to be wrong.
Tending to yourself does not fly in the face of liberation, and in fact, tending to yourself is deeply revolutionary. Tending to yourself is literally what liberation is about. And so, whatever, wherever you're at in your life, in your career, if you can take one step today to take better care of your mental, emotional, psychological, physical well being, that is one step towards liberation.
Choose a new step every day. Thank you, Weeze, for your gifts, your impact, your wisdom, and also for your decisions and what you do in the past and what you're going to do in the future. I appreciate you. Thanks for having me. Thanks.
To learn more about Leaving Well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace, visit naomihattaway.com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide, to shift culture, and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host, Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.