19: Hannah Paterson on Stepping Away, Rituals, and Leaving Well
Hannah is based in Manchester, UK and has worked in philanthropy, community activation, field building, and disability rights.
She's held various roles with one of the UK's largest funders over the past eight years, including designing and developing a wide range of funding programs and managing an extensive portfolio of complex and systemic grants.
Hannah is also the founder of the Participatory Grantmaking Community, which has grown to include over 1,500 funders seeking to understand and embed approaches to grantmaking that devolves decision-making power to the communities they aim to serve.
She is a big lover of frogs and, over lockdown, spent time cultivating a tiny garden pond so it could become a home to lots of the neighborhood frogs.
“Nothing is permanent. Everything is movable. And if you don’t like it, change it.”
Additional Quotes
What rituals do you build into transitions? What does a good goodbye look like? Whether that's personal, private, with your friends and family, your whole work team.
I have also made the decision to step back from that space to enable it to thrive through its myriad of volunteers that support it, and the amazing accountability circle that the community itself has elected to kind of steer the entity into whatever iteration that is next.
To connect with Hannah or learn more about her work:
Hannah’s piece
Participatory Grantmakers community
Resources mentioned:
Take the Workplace Transition Archetype Quiz.
To learn more about Leaving Well, click here.
My Bookshop.org Leaving Well library has many resources to support your workplace transition journey!
To support and contribute to the production costs of this podcast:
This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
Transcript:
Nothing is permanent. Everything is, is movable. And if you don't like it, change it.
This is Leaving Well, where we unearth and explore the realities of leaving a job, role, project, or title with intention and purpose, and when possible, joy. I'm Naomi Hattaway, your host. I will bring you experiences and lessons learned about necessary endings in the workplace with nuanced takes from guests on topics such as grief.
Confidence leadership and career development braided throughout will be solo episodes, sharing my best practices and leaving well framework. Expect to be inspired, challenged, and reminded that you too can embed and embody the art and practice of leaving well as you seek to leave your imprint in this world.
Hannah is based in Manchester, UK and has worked in philanthropy, community activation, field building, and disability. Right. She's held various roles with one of the UK's largest funders over the past eight years, including designing and developing a wide range of funding programs and managing an extensive portfolio of complex and systemic grants.
Hannah is also the founder of the participatory grant making community, which has grown to include over 1500 funders seeking to understand and embed approaches to grant making that devolves decision making power to the communities they aim to serve. She is a big lover of frogs and over lockdown. Spent time cultivating a tiny garden pond so it could become a home to a lot of the neighborhood frogs.
Will you tell me in your words about your transition? and or change story. Yeah. So I've had quite a lot of change and like 2023 is my year of change. Everything's kind of all up in the air at the same time, which is both exciting and terrifying. Um, so I have recently left a job that I have been in for about eight years, um, within the kind of philanthropic space.
I've worked for a kind of major funder in the UK for, for quite a while now. And then while I had been doing that, well, actually in 2020, I set up a community of practice, uh, for funders, uh, so people working in philanthropy who are interested in how you devolve power. Um, so how people who receive funding, um, make decisions about where that funding should go.
And that is called participatory grantmaking and many of the names cause language is complex and nuance. But in 2020, I set up this community of practice with 12 people on a Zoom call, and then it exploded. So it, we're now, what, three years down, and there's about 1, 800 funders who are involved in that community now.
It has been a labor of love by me and many, many people. So, um, it grew and grew very, very quickly. I ran it. In my spare time for about two years, um, and was very, very tired and juggling lots of things. It became a bit of a Hannah show, um, and the whole point is around devolving power. So I have also made the decision to step back from that space to enable it to thrive through its myriad of volunteers that support it.
And the amazing accountability circle that the community itself has elected to steer the entity into whatever iteration that is next. So at the same time of leaving my job of eight years, I've kind of started to transition out of the community. Not fully, I'm still kind of pootling around the sides and I'll help out whenever is needed, but it's not.
Consuming my every waking hour. That's one thing. And then I've also taken on a new trustee role. So I'm starting as a trustee for a youth funder in the UK, who uses kind of participatory approaches to distribute its funding to young people. And I'm transitioning out of another volunteer opportunity. I volunteer with a wonderful group of very young girls.
between the ages of four and seven every Monday evening, I hang out with them and make pasta pets and run around and play the game hedgehogs for an hour each week, which keeps me sane and grounded. But I'm actually transitioning out of that role as well. And so there's lots of change going on in my life.
And then the other personal news is that my wife is pregnant with twins. So all of this is, uh, a complete blow up of everything that I have known. Life will not be the same again, but it's exciting. Um, and lots of those transition points have kind of come on the back of kind of the personal changes and transitions.
That's a lot of change and a lot of transition. It's like everything. The only thing I haven't done is moved house. Um, and I'm not doing that. I am staying put. I am moving a lot of my furniture around and building a lot of flat pack cots, but I'm not, I'm not moving house. That's the only one we've not decided to blow up.
Yeah, good plan. Good plan. So I'm, I'm interested. I have a couple of questions around PGM. You said a couple of really beautiful things around so that it can thrive your stepping down. You also said whatever iteration that is, could you talk a little bit about whether that is natural to you or whether there was a process that you had to go through to be at the space where you can say, you know, kind of relinquish it and say whatever iteration that is and to know that it.
Is something that can thrive even without you because you started it. So is that natural or is it learned? I think it's probably a bit of both. I have watched lots of founders struggle with extradite, extraditing themselves from a space or have whatever they have built, grown into something that they aren't fitting the purpose and then that's been a really painful.
Leaving and because of that, I have leaned on a lot of the work of stewarding loss in the UK, which are an amazing organization that kind of like support good ending. So I kind of was aware of the concept and I think before then it hadn't really factored into. Maybe my consciousness, but I thought about it a lot in this setup and the design of the participant making community, but also like philanthropy is a really weird space.
There's very little innovation there. It's, it's like. It's like stepping back in time sometimes when you're kind of like talking to people that are still, you know, you can, you can fax in your application forms or, you know, even like mail them in on letterheaded paper and you're kind of like, this is a wild space and participatory grantmaking is, is great.
I obviously will advocate for it loads, but it's also the floor and not the ceiling and it shouldn't be the future of philanthropy. It shouldn't even really be the present of philanthropy. It should have been the past, um, but we're not there yet. So it, it shouldn't like parties around making shouldn't be where things end up because if they are, that's a really sad, sorry, state of affairs because people and the climate and the planet deserve more than.
Communities making decisions about wealth, they need, like, capitalism to be rethought of and systems of wealth redistribution to be completely, totally reimagined. So Part 2 grantmaking and the community that supports it shouldn't be forever. Um, and that was always the kind of viewpoint going into creating it and therefore that made it quite.
easy in a way to be like, this isn't mine. And also like, if it, if it couldn't stand on its own, then it wasn't worth standing and it should have fallen. And that, that would have been totally fine. It will have been a bit's moment and that would have been helpful and it will have created some wonderful friendships and bought a load of, um, insight and peer pressure and debate and.
Things for the sector and that would have been amazing and if that was all that it needed to be, that was all that it needed to be, but actually what's happened is I've stepped down. I'm more rested now, but also like it's thriving and it's thriving and it's being led by people who have been decision makers on participatory panels who are working within completely participatory organizations, um, that much better represent the, um, Diversity of communities who should have control over wealth that reflect kind of the global south that kind of like bring in that diversity.
So our accountability circle and the people that are leading that come from Red Umbrella Fund, which is a sex work organization. Um, and the representative from there is from Nigeria and people from disability rights fund and from transform power in Detroit and the raw often in Palestine. So it's a much better leadership that can take it into whatever.
Lies that needs to be, um, as they move forward. And that wasn't like, I'm a white middle class woman sat in Manchester that has worked in a, in a big, like, traditional funder and has attempted to shift that for eight years and twiddled around the outside, but I haven't worked in a participatory grant making organization.
Um, I've done that work. I've done community organizing. I've tried to shift power, but ultimately, like, I'm not sure I massively succeeded and therefore Who am I to be the person that leads that? That should never, that shouldn't be the case. And therefore that's like fed into a lot of that transition and kind of that unseating of, you know, I'm great at chatting about the weather and hosting a webinar and saying hello to people and make them feel happy and healthy and, you know, welcomed into a space.
Um, and I can talk loads about products you've got making. I know loads, but actually I'm just not, it's not for me now. It's for other people too. I would, I would challenge you a little bit when you say, who am I, who are you to have done it? And I also challenge a little bit gently your statement about not knowing if you've shifted power, because I think some of us, and maybe this applies to you, maybe it doesn't, but some of us.
Our, our work is to create structure and to open the door to the conversation. And you have done that so beautifully in a space where no one wanted to talk about it. If we did want to talk about it, we, I think that there's a load of people who didn't know enough about participatory grant making. And so we shied away and you've just created this beautiful space to say, we don't have to know everything about it.
To prioritize it, and you've done this, the community tending that I've watched as I've been a member of the listserv over the last couple of years is to watch voice be and microphone space, and I don't know, just a welcoming place of belonging for people to experiment. And ask questions. That's been really powerful.
Hannah to see the space to say, raise my hand. I have a question. Is anyone else doing this? Because it feels really scary. And then the loads of people that say, here's an example. Here's a report. Come join my talk on Friday. You know, that's that's shifting power. Yeah, yeah. And it definitely, it definitely isn't me.
There's a whole little army of volunteers. And also, like, it's a funny thing, the participatory world, participatormaking, because there's this debate that kind of... doesn't rage, it whispers in, in, in conference rooms and in, in small circles around, you know, is it a monster? And I think there's a reckoning there that needs to be had around.
Yeah, in a way it's a monster, like it's a bit, it's a broad church, 1800 funders involved, all of them are doing projects about making, loads of them are saying they're doing projects about making, but actually are they? I think there's like, I swing between Have I created something that's totally magnificent or a complete.
Monster, like, is, has it just given words and the ability for a lot of the big funders or smaller funders to pat themselves on the back and say, we're doing potty sugar making. And I think that probably is the case for some people. But then there's the other side of it where people say, you know. There's the do no harm principle, but actually funders do harm.
So it's not like, oh, you can't, don't do participant making because you'll do it badly and you'll create harm that that doesn't exist in a, in a space where the way that they do funding now in a traditional sense is safe and is not causing harm, like that is also causing harm. So I think there's a real tension there.
Do you give up and not challenge the, the bigger players or the, you know, the people Millions and billions of pounds to say you're doing it wrong. Do it better because they might muck it up when actually they're already mucking it up. And what does that mean? So I think I kind of swing between the two.
I've had many Essex central crisis is many of the people in the past. You're not making community have put up with my. Like complete dissolve into like, what is this? Like, is this good? Is this bad? It like, but ultimately like you hold the light with the dark, right? None of this is perfect. It's a way of shifting things.
It shouldn't be the only way. Um, and I think there's probably something in co opting the work that like amazing funders have done. So if you look at like Red Umbrella and Freedia Fund and, um, all of those that have been, you know, this isn't new, it's been around for years and years and years. Actually, by having such a large group use the terms and language of participatory grantmaking, does that then strip out the politics that has been the linchpin and the foundations and the underpinning of so many of those participatory funders?
And then does that lose meaning? And there's probably something in like, how do you adapt and evolve? And what does that look like? And actually, is participatory grantmaking the right language for the masses or is it about some of those edge practice organizations like reimagining like their next iteration and a lot of what we did and a lot of the kind of theory behind the participants community was that, like, this stuff is miserable, particularly if you're in a big bureaucratic organization, because I've spent six years banging my head, eight years banging my head against a wall, talking about governance, talking about legal frameworks, talking about due diligence, talking about getting the chair on board.
That's really dull and also miserable and super lonely, and it's not shifting power, it's just continuously talking about how to shift power. And, and that, like, If you have to shift those big players, what you need is people to maintain. So the theory was that let's, let's give some people some friends so that when you're in an, in an organization and you're like, Oh my God, this is the worst, I'm going to quit and leave it all.
You can maintain and stay and shift internally. So that was a lot of the kind of theory of it. And then as we got there, what we found was. the kind of shoulders of giants that you stood on the old school, the kind of ancestor participatory movements, those that have been working in that way for so long, just berated those individuals in systems that didn't work.
So we then pivoted quite a lot of the work to try and stretch the practice. So actually a lot of the thought and the process behind it was like, how do you, how do you push the edge practice to continuously be the edge practice? So with. If others are jumping on a participatory grant making wagon, um, then the EDGE practice has to push its practice and become more EDGE in order to, like, become that next iteration.
Whereas if you just have the EDGE practice berating traditional funders and not, like, funders not in its, like, individuals in funding. Organizations, but nothing shifts because the edge doesn't move and therefore it doesn't create the space for the traditional to move as well. So a lot of the kind of theory was give people friends and don't just push the center, push the edge.
And that's hard, like, right? You're kind of saying. Well, yeah, you're doing a great job, but how could you do better? How do you reflect on what you're doing? How do you continuously change? Is participatory grantmaking good enough? How can you be the next iteration of something? And I'm not sure we got that quite right.
We gave it a good old go. Well, and I think, I think in hearing you say that you gave it a go, and that gives another layer of foundation for the folks that are taking it forward to be able to have. That structure in place, and I, I wonder if there's anything that you've learned about the building of what you've been working with in the participatory grant making space as you've left it that you would give advice to other people who are in kind of grassroots or movement building or activism or advocacy of any topic or issue.
What advice would you give someone who might be wrestling with? Like, is it my time to go? And is it my time to pass the torch? So, lots of it is self reflection around, like, what are you giving and what are you getting. And if power is about giving it up, or in my view, like, you get power to give power, and if you're not giving it, then, then you're the one taking the power.
And in my, in the spaces that, in the works that I'm trying to do, that obviously is not. So there's a lot of self reflection. The thing that I often talk to a lot of people that are doing participant making or doing power shifting stuff is like, lots of this will come in a cycle. Um, and you'll have a couple of weeks of S Extensial Crisis while you'll question your being, your purpose, your everything.
And then you'll have two weeks or however long of, no, I've got this. This is okay. And if at any point you don't cycle through to the next stage, something is wrong. So if you're not having an S Extensial Crisis, then you've got too comfortable. Get out in somebody else's time. Um, if you feel that you are good and great and everything is all right, and you're playing sailing, you're done.
That is, that is your, your, your point in which the growth has happened. You've probably done a great job. Well done. Pat yourself on the back. Go off, have a break, go and do something else. Um, and if you spend too long in the existential crisis, then you will break and everything will, uh, be horrible for you, but also whatever you've created won't, won't succeed.
And sometimes that's fine. It, like, it's totally fine for things to end. Uh, don't be in existential crisis all your life because... Life's too short, um, and you'll be miserable. So keep cycling through, work out what your cycle is as well, it's super helpful. Uh, because if you, if you end up with like weekly, like you're yo yoing a lot, then that's exhausting.
I kind of worked on a two to three week cycle. You'd follow the moon, I mean, follow the moon. a reason. It's helpful as a guide, um, that's a nice kind of cycle to, to be in. That enables you to stretch and grow and rest and find joy. Yeah, I agree with you. If we, if we zoom out a little bit or up a little bit, Hannah, is there one process or action or thing that you did that really helped as you planned all of this?
Because it sounds like there was some intention behind it. And I think you said earlier that the twins coming was kind of a precipice of like, Oh, things might need to shift. So is there something that was like, Really, really pivotal as you planned and implemented all of your departures. Yeah, and I think there's different, there's different experiences with different things.
The participative art making community has always been a place of joy, and actually when work's been really hard, I've been like, this is my home, this is where I have my friends, this is where I feel like, like value and principle in the work, this is a safe space. So, when work was particularly bad, the thought of stepping away from the participative art making community was actually really sad.
Leaving work. My paid employment has is an is a different trajectory. I have been thinking about leaving for about 4 years and there have been many people and I'm sorry that I have chewed is off for 4 years going. I need to get out. I need to get out. It's time. It's time. And it has been time all of those points, but it's also not been the right time at all of those points.
And there's always reasons. That you can find to stay and some of that was like going through fertility treatment and some of that was like, do you leave just before you're about to have twins? Is that a sensible idea? And for like ages it wasn't, but it took us a while to get there. So, you know, you're then hanging on and hanging on and what you're hanging on for and things might not go the way that you want them to and all of those things.
Um, so I probably stayed about 18 months longer than I should have done. But actually, I'm incredible, incredibly grateful that I did stay that course because I think it helped me to leave in a really positive manner. Like, I think if I'd left about 18 months ago, I would have been jaded and angry and frustrated with lots of things.
Strategic reviews and all of those things annoy you about an organization that are in flux and move and actually I left at a really nice time. I left when I had a manager who was just phenomenal. He kind of asked me how it was and really coached me through leaving, which was. just delightful. Um, so that was really, really good.
Um, and I think, so that, that's like a different, different type of leaving in a different situation and just a different, different space. But the bit that I found that was super helpful for that kind of actually, come on, do this. You need, you needed to do this a long time. You've outgrown this a long time ago.
This isn't. Like it brought me joy in lots of different ways. Like the people are amazing. Some of the work was great, but it's a big bureaucratic organization. It's exhausting. It's, you know, was actually, I, when I started to really talk about this and like asking everyone that I met, you know, when would, when was the last time you transitioned?
You know, what information have you bought? Which is kind of how I came across you. A friend Jen Bocoff was like, Oh, And then, so I was asking and asking and asking, um, one of the pieces that came back was a wonderful essay by Debbie Dannon, which was all about rituals. What rituals do you build into transitions?
What does a good goodbye look like, whether that's personal, private? With your friends and family, your whole work team. That was really, really interesting and actually made me reflect quite a lot on like the ways that I've not behaved as a great manager as people have transitioned out. I mean, I wasn't dreadful, but I just probably didn't realize the gravitas of leaving and actually the importance of rituals, particularly.
if people have left during traumatic work experiences or like personal life has taken them away or in the middle of pandemic had a lot of stuff that obviously we're turning over in a virtual world. How do you do a goodbye party? That's well on a zoom screen. God, it's miserable. And therefore lots of people being like, I don't want anything, which is obviously their prerogative, but like thinking about actually.
How I could have had more deep and meaningful conversations about what do you want that ritual to be? What do you want that to look like? Even if it's, you know, here's about to go and have a takeaway with the housemates or whatever it is, but building that stuff in was really, really interesting. And I really love, it's a lovely essay.
Um, I'm sure you can link it in there in the bottom, but yeah, it's a good one. That's perfect. Yeah. I'll link that Hannah and also your, your piece that you wrote, because that is also amazingly beautiful. Is there anything that you wish you had done looking back? Longer off. I took a week between, and like some of that is personal.
I was like, don't take too much holiday. You're going to need all of the holiday when you've got two, two babies. So I kept the leaving time in between the two jobs really short, a week. And like lots of people, like there's a privilege in taking that time off, right? But. I, after the week, my body had just about started, like my shoulders had just about started to drop by the end of the first week and then I was thrust into a very new space and knew, knew everything and actually I probably just needed two weeks, three weeks, a month, however long, but a week was short, it felt really short.
That's the 1 thing that I say a lot to my clients is take as much time as you can. And it's always a struggle and always a big discussion. And I respect the fact that you said there's some privilege in that. And if folks can't take a lot of time off, 1 thing I often recommend is shorten a Friday then or.
Start if you can your work day a little later, just build in a little bit of extra time because you're right. That week is, you know, you just start to relax and just start to come back kind of into your own body and then you have to go to the next thing. The other thing that I was very intentional with is that first two weeks I just didn't book anything in.
I was like, the weekends are empty, the evenings are empty because like my brain was, felt like it was melting out of my ears. So yeah, I did nothing those first two weeks after work, just satisfied for being like, oh my God, I've got so much to process. I don't know anything about anything. That's really, really smart.
And I think the other thing too, is, you know, having some kind of, even if you don't normally journal, having a notebook, that's just kind of with you, that you can just jot down the things that are happening in your mind and in your body as you kind of detox almost, whether it was a toxic situation or not, there is some like detox that needs to happen from.
Leaving a job, I think. What three words would you use to describe, and you've got a lot going on with change and transition, so I don't know if you would have like more than three, but are there three words that you would use to describe how this has been? Drop my shoulders. Like, I feel like a lot of it has enabled me to be like, actually, again, like, there's a lot of privilege with that, right?
I've landed in a job that is nice. The people are lovely. The work is contained. I'm not managing loads of people. They've eased me in. I feel both competent and not competent at the same time, but like I can do my job. It's it's nice. Um, which is enabled like a bit of a relax. It's an interesting contract.
It's a consultancy contract. So like I can scale up or down the work. My hours are super flexible. If I need to go and do something, I. work a bit late, you know, all of those things have been like, really nice for where I am. I'm not managing a team, you know, and I enjoy managing a team, but it's quite nice not to do that at this point in my time.
I'd like, you know, it's a whole other part of your brain that's like geared on constantly and aware of all of the interactions and, you know, checking in and dealing with all of the things that happen. And I just don't have to turn that part of my brain on, which is delightful. I'm really lucky the positive art making community is in such amazing hands that I feel such like.
Joy and relief there. And like, lots of that is, is intentional, like succession planning, people have put huge amounts of work, Serena Dahl and, um, Ben Warble of like, and Kelly Burrs and Yelena Stevenson and all of these amazing people that have put so much time and care and effort and hours into designing intentional governance structures to enable that to happen to like the accountability circle to ensuring they're there to all of the volunteers that basically like keep the show on the road and probably shouldn't have started naming people now i'm gonna be like oh no i forgot such and such all of those things again there's intentionality to that but there's also huge amounts of like luck and privilege and just like good fortune to have amazing people holding the thing that you Love and have got so much out of, so all of that has been super helpful and has enabled me to drop my shoulders, relax a little bit, read a book, build some cots and get ready for some babies, all of those things.
That's powerful. It's beautiful. I think that there's been the thing that has. It's been threaded through this entire conversation, and when I read your piece, intentionality is so top of mind and seems so elevated for you and the process, and so I really appreciate that. Is there anything that you would have to say about change or transition that people might be shocked to hear?
Or is there anything that needs to be said that people aren't talking about? I think people talk about this, but I don't necessarily think that they hear it. And also, I don't think it's that shocking, is that nothing is permanent. And if you don't like it, you can just move on. And I think I put so much into, Oh my God, is this the right thing?
Is this next job? Is this going to be like the dream job? Is this everything I want it to be? You know, is this where I want my career to go? Blah, blah, blah. And then everyone was like, well, if you don't like it. You don't need to stay in it. And I was like, Oh, yeah. Um, and I don't know whether that's because I just been somewhere for eight years and that's just what happened.
Or, you know. I don't know, there's a fear of that, isn't it? And like, lots of that is wrapped up in like, applying for jobs is horrible, being in a miserable job is horrible, like, it is so much of your time in life that you want to enjoy, um, or at least get some joy from where you're working, uh, rather than being stuck in somewhere that's totally miserable.
So I think there's probably that fear that's fueling it, but genuinely. Nothing is permanent. Everything is, is movable. And if you don't like it, change it. I'm not sure that's that shocking. Oh, well, but I think you're right that we don't talk about it. We don't normalize it as truth. My husband often will joke with me that he says, I'm really tired of hearing you complain about insert, whatever the thing is, do something about it.
And so it's that same kind of mindset of. Nothing is permanent. And we decide. I think that's been something that the leaving well concept has really brought up for me as I looked at stewarding losses work. And the more I talk to people about leaving, there's a decision point that we all have permission and power to make.
And who knows what that opens up for either the people that get to come behind us in those roles or what we have for us. What does leaving well mean to you? I was going to say, like, leaving well... means being able to reflect on what has been, not necessarily in a good way or a bad way, because I think, like, you really, like, it's nice if you can leave someone and be like, right, okay, I've achieved this.
It was great. All of these friends, I feel really sad about leaving. It's been a great, like, that's amazing. But also, like, you can leave, like, jobs can be hard and brutal and at times traumatic, like, being able to leave and reflect on. All of that stuff and then let it go, I think is leaving well, because you might not have control over the shit show that you're leaving behind.
Um, but you might have control over aspects of least of like some aspects of the things that you're moving towards. So reflect on it, learn from it, let it go. That's beautiful. Is there anything that we haven't touched on? I mean, we could, we could have hours and hours of conversation around the different types of transitions that you've experienced.
But is there anything that we haven't touched on that you really would like those that are listening to know? No, I just feel like incredibly, I feel like,
Great people in all sorts of places and even the people that aren't so great, like just learning so much, really enjoying change. And I know that that's not everybody's bag, but like, I love it. I think it's great. I think it's really healthy and exciting and full of opportunity. And if it's crap, it'll pass.
And if it's great, it will evolve and morph and change. And yeah, you've got the opportunity to find. Joy in all of those weird and wonderful places and the dark and the light and the, and the cracks between the things head for that and make that the whole, I don't know if that made sense in the end, but it makes total sense.
I love that you said that about joy, because that's at the core of all of this is that you need to find, even if it's small, the moments of joy. So it made total sense. And I love that you just said that. Thank you, Hannah, for this conversation. We'll have links into the in the show notes. I appreciate you.
Yeah, all the things. Angie, thank you for having me. To learn more about leaving well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace, visit naomihattaway. com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system.
We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide, to shift culture, and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host, Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.