12: Jaja Chen on Grief, Trauma Processing, and Leaving Well
Jaja Chen is a 2nd generation Taiwanese American who grew up in China and Taiwan. She is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker-Supervisor, private practice therapist, and co-owner of Cha Community (formerly Waco Cha) - a boba tea cafe based in Waco and Temple, TX. Spring 2021, Jaja had the honor of representing Cha Community at the Small Business Administration (SBA) through the U.S House of Representatives to testify on behalf of immigrant-owned businesses and pandemic recovery. Jaja is passionate about representation of Asian Americans in leadership throughout Central Texas and is engaged in racial justice and sustainability work through local nonprofits, participation in the City of Waco Sustainability Advisory Board, and Asian Leaders Network Waco - which she and fellow Asian leaders started in Waco this past year. Outside of her work, Jaja loves playing with her English Bulldogs, swimming, gardening and hunting for thrifted and vintage deals.
“Leaving well is an opportunity that can then be transformed. There can be so many unexpected gifts that come from it as well.”
Additional Quotes:
“The reason why I’m able to tell my story of not belonging, but then finding connection, through our business (Waco only has 2% Asian representation), is because I’ve lived in so many places, I’ve gained experience, I know what it’s like to be both minority culture and majority culture. Because I’ve walked through the journey - myself, emotionally - I can help others walk through it as well.”
“Thinking about the future ripple effects of my impact and work is what keeps me going.”
“People don’t realize how much grief is involved in change and transition. There is so much grief involved. You need to grieve well the familiarity and proximity of people and places.”
“The experience of moving at age 13 became my first experience of trauma processing. I recommend folks start therapy - if possible - for transitions that are not within their control. I also think, as a 13 year old, I had so many worries and negative views towards transition. Actually getting through the move helped transform that worry.”
To connect with Jaja or learn more about her work:
Private Practice website https://jajachen.com/
Cha Community boba tea cafe https://chacommunity.com/
To learn more about the RAFT model https://figt.org/blog/8857196
Take the Workplace Transition Archetype Quiz.
To learn more about Leaving Well, click here.
My Bookshop.org Leaving Well library has many resources to support your workplace transition journey!
To support and contribute to the production costs of this podcast:
This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
Transcription:
Leaving well, whether you're living out of your own choice or not, there are different gifts that can come from that, um, especially if we're able to start to see that transition, you know, as an opportunity that can then be transformed. There can be so many unexpected gifts that come from it as well.
This is Leaving Well, where we unearth and explore the realities of leaving a job, role, project, or title with intention and purpose, and when possible, I'm Naomi Hattaway, your host. I will bring you experiences and lessons learned about necessary endings in the workplace with nuanced takes from guests on topics such as grief, confidence, leadership, and career development.
Braided throughout will be solo episodes sharing my best practices and leaving well framework. Expect to be inspired. Challenged and reminded that you too can embed and embody the art and practice of leaving well, as you seek to leave your imprint in this world. Jaja Chen is a second generation Taiwanese American who grew up in China and Taiwan.
She's a licensed clinical social worker, supervisor, private practice therapist, and co owner of Cha Community, formerly Waco Cha, a Bobo tea coffee based in Waco and Temple, Texas. In the spring of 2021, Jaja had the honor of representing CHOC Community at the Small Business Administration through the U. S.
House of Representatives to testify on behalf of immigrant owned businesses and pandemic recovery. Jaja is passionate about representation of Asian Americans in leadership throughout Central Texas and is engaged in racial justice and sustainability work through local nonprofits, Participation in the City of Waco Sustainability Advisory Board and Asian Leaders Network Waco, which she and fellow Asian leaders started in Waco this past year.
Outside of her work, Jaja loves playing with her English Bulldogs, swimming, gardening, and hunting for thrifted and vintage deals. Hi, JJA. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. I'm really excited for your story, um, to inspire and help other people around leaving. Well, can you tell me a little bit about your transition and your change story and what changes you've experienced in your life?
Yeah, so Oh, 13 years old. Yeah. I, uh, moved from Norman, which is where I grew up. Um, and then. As a whole family, our family moved to China, and so that was definitely probably the biggest transition I had ever had, um, at age 13, up until age 13, and so then at that point, although I had already known the language, Mandarin Chinese from growing up as a Taiwanese immigrants kid, but I had never ever even visited China before, um, and then experienced like a lot of culture shock because, you Just culturally, and even the language and dialect was a lot different, and so it actually took quite a lot of adjustment to even understand the Mandarin Chinese that folks were speaking, because I was the accents.
And then that wasn't the only geographical, like, life change, though, because you also, I think, moved again a couple of times, right? Yeah, so that was the first major move, and then at age 15, so three years. After that was when I moved to boarding school. So I went to boarding school and in Taiwan. And so Taiwan is where all of my extended relatives and where my parents are both from.
And so I had gone to Taiwan in the summer times to just visit as a child, but then age 15 was when I visited. And then eventually moved to boarding school and then spent high school there and so that was actually really interesting move because for me, moving from China to Taiwan actually led me to actually be able to spend time, you know, for holidays with my family.
to experience things like Lunar New Year or just any other breaks with my grandparents and aunts and uncles, which I had never had any of that experience being in America as a second generation Taiwanese American. Um, so then being in Taiwan, studying in high school and then You know, on breaks would visit my aunt in Taipei, which was not too far from where my school was.
Um, we really, I think it really helped me to understand not only my parents experience, but then to really learn to. Value and cherish my ethnic heritage and my cultural roots, um, in a deeper way than I ever had prior to then, because, uh, even just with the summer visits, I, it was only glimpses, right, of what Taiwan truly was like.
And so I think for me, I always tell folks that age 15 to 18 year was probably some of the most transformative experiences in my life. Yeah, so I'm so curious. So we moved our family abroad. And so some of our kids also had a similar time frame of high school age. And so I'm curious, having done those huge moves.
Some of it I think was with your family. Some of it then to boarding school was on your own. How has that, do you think, shifted or impacted your adult relationship to change and moving and shifting and transition? I think I always joke that part of why I've never moved since then in the sense of city wise.
Like, I came to Waco, Texas, to study an undergrad, and I joke that part of the reason why I've just, like, planted here is because of having moved so much that I'm like, I am never moving ever again. Sometimes I can think that very extremely, but I've also found a lot of connection and deep rooted kind of friendship here and so that's what leads me to stay here in Waco.
But when it comes to transition in general, I think. Has led me to be a lot more adaptable and I definitely have found that my experience as a teen overseas has really shifted or even transform my view towards like culture and like having a lot broader open mindedness towards, um, you know, multicultural values and even just, um, an eagerness or desire to really get to know people of different backgrounds.
But that's also something that had already been taught within my family. think partially because they were immigrants, but also because my parents have always loved just hospitality and getting to know people of different cultures. Um, they had a lot of international student friends when they were in Norman through the University of Oklahoma.
And so then from a pretty young age, that was already a value that I was learning. Yeah, I love that. Well, and I also wonder, so you just touched on values, I'd be curious if you, and this wasn't on my list of questions, so this might, you might take a minute, or I might say, no, I don't want to answer that, but what other values do you think that you hold now as an adult, whether in your career or in your relationships that you, could you trace back to those early adolescent teen years of having that much change in your life?
So hospitality, For sure, hospitality, and I think even just the value of relationship, because I move so much, both, you know, across the world, but also even home wise, and then even Within the dorm setting. It's like, you know, you're in a different room every year that I think that I realized, okay, instead of focusing all my attention on like material goods.
I really cherish like relationships in a deeper way knowing that, you know, time spent with people and that connection something that's irreplaceable. If I asked you. To think back maybe to what might have been lost or what might have been gained and you might have something for both or it might just be one that you want to kind of focus on what was lost and and maybe the opposite would be not gained but what did you walk towards during each of those big moves and those transitions, especially I'm thinking, you know, it's one thing to transition in school from And Elementary to middle to high school to college.
And then you added at some of those same time frames, new countries, new friend groups and all of those things. I'd be curious. Oh, for sure. And that's something I've definitely been thinking about because You know, now that I've been in Waco almost longer than where I was even in Oklahoma and hitting up to that point and observing, you know, as an adult, like how so many multigenerational families are, I think something I lost from moving so much, and also as an immigrant who was moving so much, um, or immigrant's kid, lost like the connection of like that multigenerational family.
Relationship and what that means to be in like one place with all your family, but at the same time, because of having been lived in Taiwan, then I gained that experience, you know, in that period. And so there's that, but then also, of course, gaining so many friendships and global kind of relationships, um, that I still even maintain to this day.
Like, the way that people talk about their college connections, I think, is even deeper for my high school. Friendships and relationships, um, especially being in boarding school. And, of course, I've lost a lot of place, like, physical places. But at the same time gain memories that I cherish, you know, and then it's a bit different for me because I do start family in Taiwan and my parents are in Taiwan.
And so I'm still have the opportunity to visit again. In fact, this past March, we got to visit, you know, Taiwan again for the first time in like four years with from the pandemic and then I was able to bring my partner to go visit the. Boarding school that we were at. So he had never gone there before and so we got to go visit again.
It had been quite a while since I'd gone back. Um, so definitely was lots of nostalgia and all those, you know, kind of old memories, , but also was, um, a really memorable experience for me to be able to reconnect with people. Yeah, so I'm curious when you went back and and especially bringing your partner into kind of that past life and visiting boarding school.
Did anything come up for you around the leaving? Like, did you in retrospect have any awarenesses or any nostalgia, um, around Wow, that's the tea. Each time that you left. So when you left boarding school, was there anything you would have done differently? I guess maybe is my question. Well, I think when I left boarding school, obviously I hadn't had known my partner at that point.
And I was just really excited, you know, to start college. And then returning back in college, I did go back to the boarding school during college. I think it was different with my partner because one, the time gap. You know, as a college student, I think I was still in transition a lot more. I think even like the time spent with people was even less.
And then this time around going back, I was like, oh wow, there's a larger time gap. And maybe I would have tried to spend even more time with people because one thing that did come up was, so from when I graduated college or Graduated high school into college. Um, my dorm mom, um, she actually had cancer and passed, right?
And so that was something where I was dating, when I was dating my partner, he had zoomed or had the opportunity to kind of like FaceTime, um, my dorm mom and me kind of tell it. You know, online wise, but then we actually never had the opportunity for him to meet her in person. And so going back this time was really intriguing because I got to meet my dorm dad's kind of girlfriend, if you will, like they were kind of dating.
Yeah, I was like so happy. But then at the same time, it was also kind of like, wow, like this is a huge kind of transition and change to kind of consider like, oh, like, you know, like, And essentially like a paranormal figure, um, you know, caregiver throughout high school is at a different Place in their life and so much has changed since then and so I definitely felt straight I was like, oh, I'm coming back with my partner and then he's never met the dorm mom But we would still talk about the dorm mom like he even my dorm dad still, you know In fact the person he was dating knows the dorm mom So it's like very it's like a very cordial like, you know, very good relationship Yeah, still openly talk about her and like have a lot of memory of her through our pictures and things like that.
So, so yeah, that was definitely really interesting. So I think if I would have. done things differently, maybe like try to visit more, you know, in college. But, you know, as a college, I think we don't really think about, at least for me, I didn't really think about how quickly people can leave the earth even, you know.
Well, that brings to mind also just even in the graduating, I think we don't There's so much pressure and so much normalizing of what's next, you know, graduating college or, or graduating from boarding school. It's always future facing. Okay, what's next? Where am I going to go to college? Where am I going to, you know, what's next?
That, you know, maybe part of the learning is around taking some time for the goodbye or taking some time for the solidification of the relationships that have been formed. Thank you. Yeah, one thing I do really appreciate about the school, because it was a boarding school and so many people were leaving globally, they did have a class our senior year in high school.
They did take portions of that semester, discussing topics to anticipate if you were going to college and then there was portions about like grief and like leaving well, so there was really good preparation. Um, And then of course it was on us to decide whether we're gonna like follow through with it.
And so they introduced concepts like, um, what they call rafts and creating like a raft. So that was definitely something that even as a senior in high school we were already tasked to do within the school itself with our boarding. parents and other people, teachers, places, and then having pictures and a lot of that occurred.
But I think looking back now as an adult and as time has, you know, transitioned on, I'm like, oh, I would have done even more of that. I feel like, yeah. Well, and I'm curious also, because you've also had, um, some I think interesting career pivots and shifts from something that you did for your career to another thing.
So I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about that. And then I want to draw some connections to your experience with change and transition from school and moving and compare them a little bit with. For sure. There's so many overlaps. So when I came to Waco, I studied, um, originally nutrition, but then landed in social work with a desire to eventually practice as a therapist.
And so then when I was first starting out, after finishing my masters of social work, I began working at a local domestic violence shelter in a nonprofit setting, um, as a counselor for adults. And so then at that point, I had done about two years of that work, um, getting licensed here in Waco, and then eventually had a job offer for part time, uh, counseling.
Group. And so then I jumped into that private practice kind of group setting, and then eventually, um, that group decided to close. And so then transition in 2019 to full time private practice. So that was a lot kind of quicker transition into self employment than I had anticipated, because you know I graduated from my master's in 2016.
Um, so that, you know, it's like within three years I was already self employed in private practice and so I know pretty fast when I think about it because I think when I was in grad school, I had not planned to be in private practice that early on in my career. I thought, okay, maybe that's something I want to do when I'm more seasoned and a lot later in life.
I think age, I felt intimidated by that. But really, I was so drawn to just providing different services and work that I couldn't really find any organizations here, especially work that I do now in perinatal mental health, work with BIPOC clients, providing Um, support even for things like racial trauma.
Um, there wasn't really any organizations that were really working in those realms at the time. And so then that's part of why private practice sounded so intriguing and why I continued down that road. And right in tandem with the private practice. In 2018 was when my partner and I, we, uh, began a boba tea, small business called cha community.
And so we, uh, started up at the Waco downtown farmer's market in 2018. And then had a food truck in 2019 and opened our store in 2020. And that was right in the pandemic. Um, and so it's very interesting looking back because the. private practice kind of journey really gave me more courage to then kind of venture into further entrepreneurship when it came to the boba tea business that we do.
Yeah, something that struck me when you were talking about that journey was when you said, I guess that was really fast to have graduated with your master's. And then going into private practice, and I wonder if some of your relationship with change and transition and pivoting might have had something to do with your even comfortability, your courage to just realize like I can do this.
I definitely think so, because I definitely believe that having like. moved so much and like had to navigate so many different cultures and like difficult life experiences from a young age, you know, since 13 into high school and then coming to America. I think, you know, even the experience of coming from Taiwan to Waco in college.
That was probably the most difficult transition between the three moves as a team. And then after that, I feel like young adulthood. Was a lot more smooth for me in the sense of I was learning to really, you know, know who I am, be proud of my identity, and then actually have more choices to, you know, to make in regards to career and then friends and where do I want to live and all of those steps.
And so I definitely think the experiences of being overseas and moving then helped me. To have a lot more ease, you know, with navigating the difficulties and challenges. Well, and you just brought up something else that struck me when you were speaking about choice. And, you know, I think as a child, we have much less choices in what we do, where we live, etc.
And I'd be curious to hear a little bit more from you. Did you feel like were all of those choices, until you moved back to Waco, were all of those made for you? And then, I guess my question would be. Whether you have any advice or any thoughts for people who might feel that they don't have choice in a current or an upcoming change or pivot or transition.
Yeah. Um, so moving definitely the initial time at age 13 was not my choice at all whatsoever. And that was very nerve racking leaving, you know, everything I knew selling, you know, all our belongings and then, you know, moving. Physically for the first time to a country I never. known or gone to. And so obviously in the midst of that, I didn't realize how difficult that would be because as an adult, then later on, I did begin therapy for my own self.
And also because being a therapist, a lot of our program trains us to really consider, you know, taking care of our own self. And so actually the 13 became one of the first. places of like trauma processing and work because I didn't even realize how much of my hesitancy towards change or desire to control circumstances was rooted in that experience.
So definitely would recommend folks, you know, to begin therapy if that's possible for transitions that are out of their control. Because then moving to Taiwan for boarding school was within my control because my parents actually gave me that decision and then in college I got to choose and basically everything else except for you know even the transition for the group practice was a little bit less within my control because they decided to close right and so there was a A bit less choice surrounding that.
But everything else, you know, in my journey since then had been conscious choice on my end and desire to pursue specific goals, um, or careers. But yeah, I definitely would say that what has helped me as an adult was processing through that and therapy and also, and also I think even as a. 13 year old. I had so many just kind of worries or negative view towards the transition.
And so then eventually though, actually physically moving kind of trend change or transform that view because I actually then got to make new friends and then I like a lot more adjustment. So if there was Looking back, I'm like, okay, if there was someone or people or resource or, you know, something in place as a 13 year old that helped me recognize like, oh, okay, there is going to be the possibility to make friends again or to have new, for me at that point, it was like a new room, you know, or new positions, you know, that's all I was worried about at 13.
Um, like a new place to put my books. That probably would have helped me at that point. Similar to how I had, you know, even like a whole semester long timeframe of learning how to rap to senior year to college. I didn't have any of that at 13. What is, what is something that you might want to say about change or transition that people might be surprised to hear, or that we don't think that we talk enough about?
I think a lot of people don't realize how much grief is involved in change and transition because we usually think of grief in regards to someone who's died or passed away, but even just like physically moving a place, there's so much grief involved. I think if I hadn't have moved so much and then also learned how to grieve well.
Like the physical proximity and familiarity of places and spaces and people. I don't think I would been able to leave those places well, or become an adult who then you know, is here in America, in the U. S., you know, in one place, you know, for the long duration that I have been in, because I've had so many, even classmates or other folks who've been in similar experiences to ask me, um, who always feel like they need to continue to leave or move constantly or always be on the go, surrounding.
You know, physical pace, even, and beyond even just like travel, but just like, you know, every two to three years feeling they need to leave or move. But of course, some of them had moved even more than I had, whether it was the military or other job related things with their family. You know, some of them had even moved throughout their, you know, from infancy to 13 years old, so way more than I had.
So tell me a little bit about, you know, you, you, so the group work ceased and there's some time in there with, um, launching chalk community. What has been your process of, like, was it an easy transition from private practice and doing social work and all of that, because that's really in depth heavy mutual aid community work.
Has there been a hard transition then to the Boba Tea life and being an entrepreneur and running your own business? Or was that kind of just a natural thing that you were ready for and it was smooth? Definitely initially, it was a lot more difficult because we were just starting up. It was a pop up tent, you know, for the first year and then the food truck and so because neither of us had food and beverage background, there was a lot of like a learning curve.
Now, I did have some food experience because when I was a nutrition major, I actually did work in like dining hall settings, but beyond that, I had not really. And as much work in the food and beverage industry, I had a lot of familiarity, familiarity with like the food itself that we're serving or the drinks and also the cultural kind of background because of the fact that boba is from Taiwan.
So none of that was a concern in regards to like authentic flavors and like how to share about So that came naturally because that's like, okay, that's who I am. I'm excited to celebrate you and appreciate my heritage and my roots and the share of that here in Waco. But the first two years, I think was a lot more exciting and just a lot of like, kind of startup life.
And then the most difficult part went from 2020 to 2021, because both. Our storefront was in the midst of the pandemic, literally the same month as the pandemic was when we opened the storefront in March of 2020, and then navigating that change of no longer being just a little startup, but to actually have a, you know, your team, your full time staff and be responsible for all the folks you're managing.
Thankfully, we've had really great managers over the years who've helped in that journey. And then throughout that whole time I was still In private practice, so I've never you did both. Yeah, I've been doing, but I still do, but you still do both. Yeah, I've never been full time in poverty. And so I've always done half and half.
My role is more. At this point, marketing and behind the scenes strategic planning, but then when I was initially starting up 2018 up until 2020, it was more of I did work a lot more of the shifts and be more in person operationally. Okay, so you are. You're navigating, and you've got, you still have two feet in two different worlds.
I do, I do, but really, people are like, how do But honestly, people are like, you must be so busy, but I really am not. Like, I like to dispel the myth that I'm just so busy because, you know, with my schedule, I can decide how many clients to take and then also, um, build everything else around that. And because I'm not working at the cafe all the time, you know, I've only at this point, I do some like pop up events and occasionally, and so, and it's not because of like.
Like, it's not that I have to be there, it's because of like, okay, we are choosing to be part of specific special pop ups. So like, for example, this past weekend, I went to Temple Pride event, right? So we were there specifically, um, to pop up for a food truck for the first time there. And so the occasional event, but the rest I can do still remote.
As long as I have a computer, um, I'm able to be more flexible that way. So I love, I'm going back to when you were first talking about your family and kind of the values that you hold around transition and you talked about hospitality and sharing culture and being part of a welcoming and a deep relationships and it feels like that's such a beautiful container to just naturally have the boba tea work like.
Oh yeah, even though the boba tea was a learning curve food wise or like how you know operationally. But when it came to values and living in alignment with that, and also helping other people to also walk into Chua community, um, it is everything connected to my childhood, like, even boarding school, like, so much of, as I look back, it's like so much of what I do now wouldn't have happened if I had never been Taiwanese American, right, or if I've never been an immigrant, or if I'd not gone to boarding school and, like, learned to graduate.
Appreciate relationships and connection, learn the power of how food and tea, right? Can bring people together all of that. Is embodied within our small business. And so that is something that has come pretty naturally. That's so beautiful. I mean, I talk a lot with folks about their legacy and about their imprint and their red thread almost of like what we've through everything that you do.
Um, and you're just such a it's such a beautiful example you are your work. Your story is such a beautiful example of all three of those. For sure, for sure, yeah. And I think part of it too is like the reason why I'm able to even just tell the story of like not belonging or feeling of not belonging, but then finding connection, um, which is a story sometimes that we will tell in our business when it comes to like Asian representation here in Waco where it's 2 percent Asian.
Um, I think the reason why I'm able to tell those stories and to not feel ashamed or to be like scared about backlash or what people think. It's because it's like, okay, I've lived in so many places and moved, that's what I've gained in the sense of, I know what it's like to be in the majority culture and also minority culture, but also because I've moved so much.
It's like in the end, you know, take glimpses of each different culture as a third culturally kid, but also recognizing that, okay, because I've walked through that journey myself, even emotionally, then can help other people to kind of navigate that experience as well. I love that. And I think, you know, you, you may know, you may have an idea of this, but I, I can imagine that there's a lot to your legacy that you're imprinting in Waco that you'll never know.
The ripple effect of what Shaw community means for, even if it's only 2 percent now, um, you know, who lives in Waco 50 years from now or a hundred years from now, and all of the impact that you have, you and your partner based on the work that you're doing, um, there is really powerful. Now that's the type of thing that keeps me going, right?
Even when it's challenging with the pandemic and all that, thinking about those future ripple effects is really what keeps me going. Yeah. What would you say the phrase leaving well means to you? I would say leaving well includes like cherishing the people, connection, places, the land that you're on and like really learning to appreciate, you know, that whether you're living out of your own choice or not, that there is lessons to be learned and that there are different gifts that can come from that, especially if we're able to start to see.
That transition, you know, as an opportunity that can then be transformed to fuel whatever future that we walk into. And so even if it isn't something that we choose consciously, there can be so many unexpected gifts that come from it as well. I love that. Like, yes, exactly that. That's perfect. Is there anything that I haven't asked you or anything that has come up while we've been talking that you would like to share?
I think the only thing I can think of is that there was a period of time where I actually was working at a counseling center. So this was right before the pandemic. And I did experience a layoff. So that's like one other time where I didn't leave consciously. Absolutely. And that was like right when the pandemic hit, then I got laid off from, it was like a part time counseling role contract position.
And that was one area of like the first time getting into that role was like really exciting thinking, okay, maybe this could pan out into be something longer term, like a full time position. This was back in 2020. Yeah. End of 2019, 2020. So we hadn't even had a storefront yet at that point. And so I thought, Like a dream, like, oh, this is what is going to be a future job in, you know, in the long run, like working in a counseling center in a higher ed city.
And I was actually working with international students at the time. So that was really awesome. But following the layoff, then that was like completely shift of like, Oh, this definitely is not gonna be what's gonna happen. I do not want to, you know, pursue that anymore. And then the pandemic, of course, right?
So, so then just focus on private practice and our shop. But now I look back and I'm like, you know, I think It ended up working out, even though at the moment I had really wanted to continue in that role. It ended up working out in the long haul, because I think, you know, since then, three years later, there's been so much that's happened within our Boba Tea Swap business that I could never have predicted.
And so the flexibility of being fully self employed and not in any kind of contract work or role really has Been huge, you know, to, to, like, allowing me to do what I do now. So that's another area. I'd say, like, even if the transition is unexpected, we don't always know until we look back, like, how it.
Changes or how it actually could work out to our benefit. Well, and I think it's, you know, it's so interesting when we're, when we are not in control when things happen to us that we don't have much deciding or much choosing going back to our values and trying to pull into whatever choices we do have.
Making sure they're aligned with our values is so important. Um, Oh, for sure. I love, I love your, the peppering of your values all throughout your entire life. That's just really cool. And I'm sure there's more, hundreds more stories of examples that you could share. Yeah, but that definitely would be the main thing.
Well, thank you so much. I, we could talk for hours and hours because we haven't even touched on all of them. I mean, there's so much sections, but I appreciate you to learn more about leaving well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace. Visit naomihattaway.com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide, to shift culture, and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.