11: Ranking Your Friends and Leaving Well with Jerry Jones
Jerry Jones is fascinated by all things culture and loves watching when cultures blend. He is a cross-cultural trainer and coach who offers support and develops resources for global people.
He goes deep with expats and repats and locals who are wading through the mess of cross-cultural challenges and helps them move forward. He works with great people all over the world who want to understand how to do global life better. Jerry also writes about what he sees and how he sees it, and loves to share the nuggets picked up from his successes and failures with international business.
Jerry is a guest that I had to have on the show early in the inaugural episodes, because he planted the original Leaving Well seed (in the international expat space), and the concept has been with me ever since. In this episode, we riff about the presence of grief, pillars vs. bricks, ranking your friends, and get to the heart of how powerful leaving well can truly be.
“You need to rank your friends. You want to give the most time to the people who have invested the most in you. You don’t want to give your last moments, your most valuable moments, to your Number 15 friends. Your Number Ones deserve your best time. It’s good stewardship of your time.”
Additional Quotes:
“The opposite of intentionality is … natural. If you’re not intentional, you don’t have to do anything. You just float. You go where the tide or the stream takes you. Goodbyes are not natural for a lot of us. If we do what comes naturally, we avoid them because they hurt, they’re painful. Applying intentionality to all of that is key.”
“It’s not just hard and good at the same time - saying goodbye - but the hard is because of the good. The two run parallel, they run in tandem. They travel together. The good-er it is, the harder it is. The reality of leaving well and leaving poorly, it all boils down to this: the only way to make leaving easy is to make the relationships you have less good.”
“One of the big surprises for people is that their issues can fly. Wherever you go, your issues will be with you on the other side. That’s what leaving well is all about. Addressing those issues, resolving those issues where you can. Making sure that to the best of your ability you don’t pack them in your bags and take them with you.”
To learn more about Jerry:
Jerry’s co-hosted podcast Diesel & Clooney
Jerry’s Leaving Well blog post
To learn more about Leaving Well, click here.
My Bookshop.org Leaving Well library has many resources to support your workplace transition journey!
To support and contribute to the production costs of this podcast:
This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
Transcription:
You need to rank your friends. You want to give your best time to your best people, to the ones who have invested the most in you, the ones who've been there, the ones that you've done this life with, right? That you don't want to be giving your, your last moments, which are the most valuable moments, to your number 15 friends.
But your number ones, like, they deserve Your best time. That's just, it's good stewardship of that time, right?
This is Leaving Well, where we unearth and explore the realities of leaving a job, role, project, or title with intention and purpose, and when possible, joy. I'm Naomi Hattaway, your host. I will bring you experiences and lessons learned about necessary endings in the workplace with nuanced takes from guests on topics such as grief.
Confidence, leadership and career development braided throughout will be solo episodes sharing my best practices and leaving well framework expect to be inspired challenged and reminded that you too can embed and embody the art and practice of leaving well as you seek to leave your imprint in this world.
Jerry Jones. I'm really excited to chat with you. I'm more excited. We won't have a competition about who's more excited. It's not a competition, just if it was. You would win. I would win. Yeah. Could you, could you do us a favor, whoever's listening out there and introduce yourself? Yeah. So I'm, I'm Jerry Jones.
That feels like a loaded question because there's like, I mean, there's like, which part of myself do you want? Which of myself do you, do you want? Um, so short, short story. I'm Jerry. I live in California right now, which is new for me. I've been here. Uh, Couple of years before this lived in China for about, uh, for most of 15 years, did a little back and forth, uh, worked with several companies over there, launched a couple of companies over there, um, just doing transition cross cultural stuff.
That's, that's really kind of what sums me up. I love that stuff. I love that conversation. Uh, so anywhere that that conversation goes is where I try to go. And, um, and I've had a lot of fun doing that. How was that? Is that that's perfect? That give you like anything else you need to know about me? I mean, I know other things that I would maybe add to that.
Like you're a really, really amazing writer. Thank you. I appreciate that. I, I enjoy writing. Like I, I just, I, I enjoy thinking. And so I enjoy like, Putting some words to that. And for me, mostly writing is just fun, but I, but I do enjoy that. Yeah. So that's actually one of the places. I mean, I think going back that we first met was because of your blog.
Cause you're an amazing writer too. And I, yeah, that's how, that's how I knew you from your amazing writing. Thanks. Well, and same like I, I think it's interesting to be able to put kind of a container around our thoughts and what we're thinking and then put it out there kind of in a hoping this helps maybe someone else because it's how I feel and maybe you feel that way.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, like I found, and I think, I mean, knowing you and your writing as well, like Those those are the pieces that connect right? Like, when you when you're like, this is how this makes me feel. And what you discover is when you put that to paper or to blog or or whatever, uh, lots of people tend to connect that if you can be a little bit open, honest and vulnerable about that.
There's a lot of people who feel the same way. Right? So what would you say? I mean, for me, the most memorable, which is hard to say, because there's a lot of posts and things that you've done that are really sticky for me. But the thing that probably prefaces this conversation quite a bit is your work and writing around leaving well, and the concept of that from a play space mindset.
Is that one of your most popular blogs or are there other blogs that. Rank up there when you like, look at your stats. Yeah, I think I think like, as far as things that have resonated with people and things that have connected. That's that's been that concept and that idea. And that was absolutely 1 of those pieces that like, this is just stuff.
This is stuff that I feel and it's stuff that I'm learning. Like, I was. I was really fortunate to work with a company in China that took that seriously took it. And it was, it was kind of my 1st experience with that. Like, these people were saying, not only do we have people coming in and all these expats are trying to figure out what life looks like and and all the new stuff, but there's this whole other transition on the other end of it.
And so they were, they were taking that seriously. And then it became part of my job. To serve those people and help those people. And so that's where I got to learn about, about what it means to leave and what it means to leave well, and what it means to not leave well, right. What would you say, or maybe could you condense your learnings around leaving well, and maybe even if it's what you most found resonant for the folks that you were working with, how would you describe it for folks that haven't heard about it or don't know about it?
Sure. Yeah. Well, I think for me, one of the big aha moments was that like, we always talk about leaving, especially from, uh, like when there's a big shift, right? When you're moving, when you're, when you're leaving country, when you're, you're moving on to the next big thing, we, we talk about leaving kind of with the language of when, right?
Like, when are you leaving? What, like what, and, and what that means is when did you buy your, your plane ticket for, right? Like when, when do you have to be out of your, your house? When can I come? Stake the stuff that you're when you're not taking with you. That's and yeah, when are you leaving? And what are you doing with your toaster like that?
That kind of, but, but there's a date around it, right? Like, so June 16th is when I'm leaving. And that is just such a fallacy, right? Like, the realities you're leaving when even before you decide to leave, because it's such a process, right? Like, you go through and sometimes that process takes. Years, especially in an expat setting, but, but I, I think, um, for anyone, there's always a thought is now the time that we're going to, we're going to leave.
Um, and then that ramps up from there, right? Like, it gets more and more intense. And then you make the decision with the people that you're close to. And then you, you go into the process of revealing that to people, right? The people that you're close to the people back home, the people, like, there's a.
Yeah. There's that revelation process, which is another part of the process. And then there's the, the goodbyes and the packing up. And then finally, like there's the, the airplane or the, or the departure date, but then leaving continues after that and leaving like that process goes on long after you've, uh, you've departed geographically.
I think that, and then, and then there's a, uh, about. I forget 378 conversations you can have around that 1 idea that leaving is a process and not a, not a date. Well, and I also think what's interesting about what you said around leaving is a process is. The whole thing around you can also have made a decision for when that date is and sometimes the decision is made for you on when that data.
And so that's, that's a huge component of like, what if you're not the decider? What if you or what if you are? Because sometimes that's even sometimes feels more painful if you're the one that decided. Right. And we just went through the largest, like the most massive, uh, there was so much of that dynamic with COVID.
And like, I, I know so many people who it was like, we were a part of our community people left for 2 weeks because this new virus was here and we just needed to get out of China. Right? Like, people needed to get out of China. And those people never came back. And, and some of them, Yeah. Their process of deciding went for about a year and a half, right?
They tried as hard as they could to get visas, to get back in. Um, and finally, like they had to pay the bills and they had to, they had to do something. So there were so many people who it was decided for them. And that was like, that was an overstatement of that, but, but that happens all the time, right?
Like it, whether it's your company, whether it's circumstances, sometimes it's just not up to you and you don't, you don't get to hold the reins on. On when it is, yeah, I also, I also think that there's so much that you bring to the conversation around cultural competency and being aware of where your decision to leave or your.
Reality of leaving falls into the spectrum of who else it involves and who else it impacts. What would you say you've brought with you from your work that you were doing in China and your current work now that you're stateside, even though that's also still international. What have you learned that you would add to that?
That's a, that's a great question. Um, and I, and I feel like there's this, there's so many little answers to that. Uh, but if I'm trying to kind of sum that up and things that things that have stuck with me, it's that so much of so much of transition. Is it's like transition economics, right? Like it's, um, it's supply and demand it's.
And when, when things are in high demand and low supply, they're really, really valuable. And so if you're leaving, that's, that's where time fits. Uh, that's why I always, when I would do seminars and workshops around leaving, I would always get the big shock moment and people would look at me. Like, I was crazy when I would say, Hey, you need to rank your friends.
Uh, and people would, people would be like, what in the world you can't, you can't say that. And I'm gonna say, I, I'm not saying you need to place higher value on people. Right. But for you, your relationships have value and your time is becoming very, very expensive. It's becoming very, very valuable. And you want to give your best time to your best people, to the ones who have invested the most in you.
The ones who've been the ones that you've done this life with, right? That you've been through the hard times and all of that. And you don't want to be giving your, your last moments, which are the most valuable moments to your number 15 friends, right? Um, they're, they're good. Give them number 15 time, right?
Have a party. Invite all those people or invite a big dinner and a lot of people to dinner invite like number eight ones. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But your number ones, like they deserve your, your best time. That's just, it's just good. It's good stewardship of that time, right? Like it's, um, it's managing that well and recognizing that some people they've earned more of you than other people have.
I think that what came up for me when you were saying that was, of course, all of the. Experiences and memories around trying to decide what to do host a party one on one time, whatever. And I also think that there's, I could kind of lay that same concept over the places that mean something to you after learning concept of leaving.
Well, every, every time we've moved, we make a very big point of going back to the restaurants that we love to say goodbye to our. Favorite weight staff and take pictures at the places that meant a lot to her family. And I think that that was also a resonant lesson for me around. It's not just people also as you.
It's it's places. It's, it's your stuff. It's, it's all of that. And I, I like. I feel like that's a lesson I learned from the late Dave Pollack, um, author of the, of the TCK book. He was really good about putting that out there and just helping, helping people recognize that it's not just about the, it's not just about the relationships and.
The relationships really, really matter. But those those places are really important. The your stuff like your sacred objects, I think is what he called them and helping your kids sift through that and manage through that. You know what, what is sacred to you and how are you going to honor that whether you hold on to it and take it with you, it moves on to the next place with you or you have to say goodbye to it.
How do you how do you honor that and that's that's all part of that process, which is why. If you, if leaving is an event, you miss all of that. Right. And so that's, that's the opposite of what you're trying to share with people and leaving. Well, what would you say about either your personal experience and relationship with goodbye and endings, or if that's not the path.
What would you say you've learned from all of the clients and organizations you've worked with? A couple of things. One, intentionality is absolutely key, right? And I always say intentionality, like the opposite. Well, I'll ask you, what's the opposite of intentionality? They're in the right answer and you, you might get it wrong.
I mean, the opposite of intentionality for me is apathy, I guess. Yeah, that's a good answer. Wrong, but it's a good answer. You win. You win again, Jerry. It's not a competition, Naomi. I'm just saying if it was. Yeah, like there's so many opposites to intentionality, but I like to think that the opposite of intentionality is just natural, right?
Like, because if you're not intentional, you don't have to do anything. You don't, you don't have to make a decision. You just float and, and then you go where the tide or the, or the stream takes you, right? It's just, you do whatever comes naturally and goodbyes are not natural for a lot of us, for some people they are right.
For some people are just really good at them. It's part of their, their makeup. Uh, for many of us, the, we would, if we do what comes naturally, we, we avoid them. Right. Because they hurt, they're painful. Uh, and so I think applying intentionality to, to all of that is absolutely key. Uh, we have to be intentional and the beauty of it is like the worst you are at it in general.
The more leverage and the more, the more credit you get for doing anything intentional. My father was not a word speaker. Like he was very, very quiet. But if he said three words, it like the whole place would start crying because dad said something, right. It meant something. Saying goodbye is the opportunity to be intentional and you get credit for how intentional you are, whatever that, whatever that looks like, right?
Whatever it looks like for you, people want to know how important they are to you. And that's one way to show them, but it takes intentionality. So if it comes very naturally for you, you just don't get as much credit until you move to that line of intentionality. And that's really important. I also see when you were talking, I was thinking about like, kind of, uh, maybe not intersecting circles, but you know, a bigger circle, almost like the ring ring of a tree where sometimes the intentionality needs to just be for you, uh, around, uh, sometimes it needs to get a little bigger to maybe the people that you live in the same house with, and for some of us, or maybe even sometimes it can go all the way out to you.
Neighbors or people that you used to hang out with or whatever. Absolutely. This is going to be the problem with us talking is like, I'm, I'm wanting to go 10 different ways. I reached out to you about a year ago and said, Hey, Jerry, you have this really amazing blog around, around leaving well, and it's something our family has adopted.
And I said to you, do you mind if I kind of riff off of it and start doing some work around leaving? Well, I guess my question for you in that is. I would love for you to talk a little bit about impact and the legacy of, of planting a seed or starting something, knowing that it has. Exponential opportunity because that for me was something that really impacted our lives and has helped our family unit stay close and process our goodbyes when we've left country when we've left expat postings, but then I brought it back to the US and put it in my nonprofit world.
And then people started asking me, can you talk to me more about how you left that last job. And so I guess maybe it's part thank you for. Planting, but then I'd love to hear your thought about like legacy and imprint on the work that we put out to me, like the idea of living well as something that was planted in me.
And I was, I was fortunate to have that experience through some great people and something that grew. In me and and hopefully something that I've been able to plant and other people like this is a conversation that I've become very comfortable with and I love and because I love the impact that it has, it has, I think it there's.
So much value that we, and, and to me, I mean, maybe that's the aha moment is that this even matters at all, right? Who thinks about leaving, right? Like, we think about, especially like, in this world that we've both lived in this international, intercultural, like, you saw the brochure, you got looped in, you're going to go live in this different place and experience the different cultures and learn a new language and meet people from far away.
It's going to be amazing. That's where you need training, right? Nobody thinks, Oh, and you're going to leave someday, but that is where that is where lives fall apart. Your life doesn't fall apart with the, with that first transition. It's, it's exciting enough to carry you through, right? It's hard. And there's challenges, but it's fun.
What people. Don't tell you in the conversation that people don't have is, and if this is where you went with, I'm a triangle, right? Like this is, and that's why that piece connected so much to the world, because people could resonate with it. And then the amount of people, the sheer volume of people that you connected with through that simple thought was, was a world of people screaming out saying, yes, like I've had this experience too.
And thank you for hearing me. We had, we had, we had friends who shared with us that, um, they, they worked with the company. We lived with them in China and they shared with us that every single person that they had worked with after, after repatriating everyone in their company, they had gotten divorced.
Right. And, and we were like, shocked by that. And then. They left and they got divorced. Right. Like there's there. And, and it was because it wasn't because right. I mean, who, who knows why behind all of that, but I would say that their company could have done a lot better job at supporting them so that, so that maybe things could have been different.
Nobody can say what would have been different, but maybe things could have been, had they gotten some support. Yeah. Uh, that, that could have helped them process through their most important relationships, right? Because that's, that's where the impact of this really hits home, um, is, is home. Well, and I think about, you know, if you, if you liken, cause leaving well, when I started doing some deeper, like who talks about leaving well, besides Jerry Jones and in the expat world, there's a lot of, uh, use of it, especially in the UK around hospice and dying, which of course makes sense.
Yeah. And. I think about my uncle who passed away and he was one of the most prepared, most, uh, independent, takes care of himself person. We didn't have a will and, and what that did with and for our family. And it wasn't all good because then we had a lot of deep conversations and a lot of uncomfortable conversations.
And. When you said that about the brochure talks about the front end, it's the same with jobs, you know, the job description, the interview process, it's all really exciting. And even in all of the books about career development, transitions, starting a new job, I've looked in all the indexes and they don't talk about leaving.
So many companies, right? And this is a very selfish business perspective. And actually it's a, it's a misguided bad business, business perspective, right? Is that there's so many companies who, who like from a spreadsheet perspective, we're done with you now, right? Like your, your time with us either here, uh, or even in this job sometimes has come to an end.
We don't need to prepare you for what's coming. I just go back and get to work. And those companies are, I'm sorry, like this, it hits a nerve with me. They're stupid. They're they're ignorant and they are bad businesses, right? Because it, it supports your business to take care of your people. Even if those people don't work for you anymore, because those people are going to go tell other people.
And I, I know, I mean, I'm not going to tell you on this podcast, but I know a company right now where everybody gets divorced when they leave from. Working abroad, right? I'd never work for that company. And if anybody asked me, should I, if the best talent in the world came to me and said, should I work for this company?
I would say absolutely not. Um, cause they don't care about you. Right. So it matters. Like it, it absolutely matters. And businesses don't understand that. Um, businesses and like everybody. Yeah. Everybody. Yeah, well, I think when you were talking about the brochure piece, and the fact that, like, so many people do have a big transition in their life, like repatriating, leaving and posting a job company, if people would just if organizations and businesses would just start by naming it, that this is a huge transition, they don't even have to go the full kit and caboodle of offering counseling and support and resources, but just saying this is going to suck.
And it's very likely that your house is going to be disrupted and it's very likely that the person you became while you were here and the, you know, all those things and no one wants to even talk about it. They don't know, and it's it's really sad and it's and it's damaging like it's, and I feel like it just hasn't mattered enough also for us to gather that for us.
For us to measure that and say, you know what, what's the data behind this and, and, and so the numbers for leaving are much less substantial than they are for a lot of the other transition pieces. Well, and when you talk about it not mattering enough to measure. I think so often, what starts getting measured is what has happened to someone who's in a deciding role.
Yeah. Once we start having folks that are responsible for the bottom line. If they experience that kind of a transition, then it might all of a sudden matter. And I mean, think about like, there's all sorts of statistics that talk about how much more it costs a company to replace someone who's left. That is, yeah.
And you know, they always say it's usually six months to a year of someone's salary, but I think it's, I think it's more, um, I think it's more like two to three years. If that's only what they can measure in the. In what they put in the spreadsheet. Right. And yeah, those damaging effects. It's really hard to connect them to, you know, the dollars, but, uh, but they absolutely are there and the reputational piece and the fallout from all of that.
It's, it's really important. And, and so I'm, I'm thrilled that people like you are taking this and saying, I'm going to help people do this because it's important. And I'm, I'm thrilled that, Thank you. You know, some people are getting it and companies like the company I worked for, they, they got it and and a few others did as well.
And I think it made an impact. It made a change. Well, and I'm watching, I'm watching as layoffs are happening on LinkedIn, and I'm watching certain companies do some simple things. So they may say. Uh, we were laying off, you know, a hundred people and what we've done is put together a guide and a spreadsheet of what they are really amazing at and it's here.
So if you could, if you've got opportunities, if they match what you need, could you please connect with them? That's so simple. Yeah, it is. It is, it doesn't make the loss or the grief or the transition or disruption any easier, but I would rather work for a company who offers that at the end, then absolutely nothing.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you can see that you can see that coming into a company, how they take care of the people going out. Right. And, and there is a, there is a narrative inside of any organization that permeates and, and will be told the story will be told if people feel like they're getting tossed out when they're.
Yeah. When they're done right that becomes a part of your of your culture. Yeah. Well, and I think there's there's so much one of my big visions is that eventually people who are interviewing for jobs will ask the recruiter or the HR person. What is what's relieving well policy like what do you do when people leave, because I think that starts to, like you said it's culture.
Another question that I would love to hear your insight and, and by the way, for people that are listening, we're just riffing. We're not, there was no prepared set of questions because it's not as expansive. So what do you, what do you want or hope for your children to have most learned from you and your family's modeling of leaving?
Well, yeah, taken to their adult lives. Yeah, I mean, the, the intentionality is, is 1 piece of that and just recognizing the difference between what, what a living experience looks like when you just do it. Naturally. And you do it intentionally. And I, and I also think our last departure when we, when we left China, uh, we moved to Malta for like, that was, that was our next move.
That's where we were going to live. And we did that in the middle of a pandemic and it lasted for three months. And then we broke it. It was terrible. Like it was, it was the worst leaving. Ever. Right. The one good thing about Malta is we barely had any friends to say goodbye to by the, by the end of that.
Right. So it wasn't another round of that. What I hope my kids learn and see and, and value is, is the value of what those experiences brought to them. Right. Like, uh, because I, I grew up staying in the same place. Forever. And for them, honestly, for them, that doesn't sound so bad after what we just went through.
Right. And there's value to it. Like, that's the thing, like, for me, the thought of moving and going and be like, that's what I would longed after. And I wanted to see that. I wanted to experience that. I wanted to feel it because all I could see was the other side. It's, it's taken like coming full cycle to recognizing the value of where I came from, right?
There was value in how I grew up, but there was also value in how we did this. Right. And, um, and, and I want my kids to know that there's something rich and beautiful about the experience of saying goodbye, uh, of, of having people. Maybe that's the other aha moment is that. It's not just hard and good at the same time, right?
Like that paradox exists, but. The, the hard is because of the good and the, and the 2 run parallel together. They run in tandem. They, they travel together. Right? And the, the good or it is the harder it is right? Like, it's and so and so the reality of leaving well, and leaving poorly, like, it all boils down to this.
The only way to make leaving easy. Is to make it less good, right? Is to make the relationships that you have less good. So it means not. And we see people do that, right? Especially in, in the context of, of high transition areas, whether that's the expat world, military world, or when people have to say goodbye a lot, they shut down and they quit building relationships.
And then the goodbyes aren't so hard, right? The life isn't so good either. And you have to sacrifice one for the other. So I think recognizing that is just such a, such a key part of, of how you do life, because it really dictates what happens after you leave. Well, how do you, how do you jump into the next place, right?
How do you connect? How do you, how do you build relationships and do you even do that? Or is it just not worth it for you? Because that was so hard, right? Hard and good are in direct correlation to each other. I love that. And I also. I think that there's so much to be said around the fact that, you know, that that cycle of how you were raised and didn't leave the place.
And then your kids now have experienced a lot of change and a lot of leaving and they might not think that the leaving so often is exciting. They might stay right. And even that circle pattern is really powerful. Yeah. And it's rich. It is. It's so rich. And, and, and that's where I think we're so, we're so centered around our own experience that it's really hard for us to see the value in other people's experiences.
And, and, and I definitely went through that, that cycle of, this is such a Such a better life, right? Like I, I get to, and I found the value in making these connections with people from all over the world. And even though we had to say goodbye now, I know people all over the world. And we just had an experience this week where at a medical emergency in Kenya, and we knew people, right.
We know we can connect you. I love that. There's so much value to that. And there's value in how my dad lived his life, right? Like he just stayed in one spot and planted himself there and surrounded himself with the same people his entire life. So much value in that. And I love that too. And we're We're built differently.
We have different things that drive us and motivate us. And both of those are very rich experiences. And both of those lead to leaving, right? But neither of those is an experience where you don't have to say goodbye. Yes, that's so true. I think there's a space. To where I think a lot of folks assume that the beauty of getting to redefine or reintroduce yourself comes only when you have a transition, or you leave and go to something else.
And it came to mind when you were talking about your dad and a short story is that Mia, our youngest, when we repatriated her 4th grade, I think, 4th grade teacher called me in to have a teacher chat with parents. And I was like, this is cannot be. My daughter, because she's super she's a great student. And it turned out that what she wanted to talk about was the fact that she was struggling with what she should know, like the US presidents like currency in the US.
And I laughed and I'm like, Oh my gosh, we just moved back from India. So like, if you ask, right, Indy, or you like. And the teacher was completely flabbergasted. And she said, she not once mentioned that you all lived overseas. And my personal reaction to that was why would she not tell this was the most amazing thing ever.
And we poured all this amazing opportunity into our kids lives. And they just wanted to just life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of the other things that came up when you were talking about your dad. And your, how your childhood was versus your kids is, is loyalty and I'm curious how you feel about loyalty. I'm thinking from like the lens of a company and staying at a company a long time versus people that maybe feel like they're hop skipping around.
And I don't know if in your work, your current work, if there's anything that you have to say around that. I think loyalty, just loyalty, like, yeah. What we're talking about here, like life in general, there's different expressions of loyalty, right? Like, are you loyalty to principles? Are you loyalty to a brand, to a company, to a, to a person, to a set of ideals like that?
It can look different, uh, in, in a lot of different scenarios. And. Like the thing that comes out and especially as I think about the contrast between my experience and my father's experience and what I value, what he values is that we both share shared like my father passed just a few years ago, but a loyalty to an idea of of what's.
Stability looks like, right? And for me, like, it was part of the dysfunction of moving abroad was to feel like something was wrong with me. Why do I want to keep moving? This is not what you're supposed to do because everything that had been planted in me was different. And I remember 1 time it was a business lunch and we met.
A couple who were in their seventies, maybe close to 80, and they had lived all over the world. And, and she gave a, like a keynote speech. And so at lunchtime, I was like, I want to sit by them. I want to talk to them. And so I positioned myself, snuck in and said, I don't think I sat in between them, but I got as close as I could.
And I asked them the question. I said, what's the longest you've lived in any one spot? And they looked at each other. It was cute. And, and they were like, I think it's now. Right. And I said, how long is that? And they were like 4 years. And so here they are in their 70s having never lived 1 place more than 4 years.
And I just watched as they, I mean, they were doing it in the room. They were connecting people and they were saying, oh, you need to meet these people. And this person's in this part of the world. And it really, like, the, the idea of my father, who I would call a pillar. Who plants himself in one place and then builds on top of that right like puts things and and he held things up right so if you were to knock him out the whole thing comes crumbling down versus these people who were similar in age, but I call them bricklayers right they were more of one brick at a time.
And, and what they did what they did well was every brick that they set, they, they took. Long enough to spend and make, made sure it was lined up. They did it right. They made sure that, uh, that, that people around them were taken care of. They added value to because I mean, let's be honest. There's a lot of walls built out of mushy bricks, right?
That you can, you can push over with your hands where people move from place to place and they have that same desire, but they don't have a loyalty to stability. Right. They don't have a loyalty to, to anything that makes, um, makes their environment better or people are taking it like any of those ideals.
And I know this is like, I, I, I took your question and ran, ran with it in a different direction, but it's, to me, that's what the loyalty really boils down to is like, what are, what are we loyal to? How do we move toward that? And the reality is, I can move towards something very strong and very stable that it, that looks like a brick wall.
Whereas my father planted a pillar and built things around himself and both of those are stable. Yeah, I think there is a loyalty to, to what is important that really, really comes into play. That doesn't answer your question about, no, it actually does because it's a really good segue to values, which is usually when I work with someone, it's, it's something we do in the middle of the time.
We do a lot of stuff on the front end and we do a lot of stuff on the back end, but in the middle is this really huge chunk on values. And I think get it's so easy, especially in the workplace or project place or volunteer place to lose sight of our values and why we're there in the first place. Yeah.
Yeah. That's so important. That was a good riff. That's so important. And, and leaving is a, is a great time to do a values inventory, right? Because, because the reality is oftentimes in your tenure, in the amount of time that you've spent in some place, your, your values have shifted. If you've gotten to live in a place that's very different from where you lived before.
Some of those values changed over time. And I mean, this connects very much to the I am a triangle concept, right? You're going back to a place where maybe the values didn't change, but yours did. And and that's. That's a big piece of of who you are. Well, I think the values inventory is a great idea also, because the more you see about a place or about a company or about a sector, the more I think you can either dig your heels in and say, yeah, this is something that's really, really powerful and important to me.
Or this is something that maybe I want to shift and go in this other space. And I think the biggest for me, when I started realizing how much the leaving well concept. Could translate from my expat life to my nonprofit life was I see so many times in the nonprofit sector. We are just trading really exhausted people between organizations.
Yes. Yeah, it doesn't have to be that way. No, it doesn't. And that's why your work is so important here, right? Like the exhaustion comes, the, the overwhelm comes. This is, I mean, leaving is stressful. Leaving is, is transition. Transition is change and change always comes with grief, right? So if people aren't going through that process, you're, you're walking forward into the next thing.
You're just carrying that. Pain with you. And I don't even use like, I think grief gets a bad, maybe here's another aha thing is that grief is grief is good, right? Grief is such a good thing. And grief because grief is grief is not the sadness, right? It travels with sadness and that's a part of it. But grief is like the, the thing that comes alongside of you and puts its arm around you and says, Hey, we're going to, we're going to go through this together.
We're going to figure this out. We're going to come out on the other side. And if you'll walk with me. It's, it's going to be good again, right? Like that's where, that's what grief is, but we, because it always travels with these sad, hard transition change things, it gets a bad rap as if it is the, uh, the villain in the story and it's not right.
And I, and I think we've, we've got to recognize that leaving is, is change and change is grief. And if we don't give it that space, then we're, yeah, we're selling ourselves short and we're, we're faking it. I think that's actually a really powerful response to the question that we've been pulling through with us is like, what was, what would be something that people might be surprised to hear?
Because if we normalize grief as something that's going to happen, it means we also have to normalize or sit next to change, which means we also like, it just becomes, it puts more of a responsibility and not in a bad way to continue growing. In a moving transition, there's always there's usually not always I'll say, because you, you brought out, um, at the beginning of this, sometimes it's not your choice, right?
Sometimes it's just really hard. Sometimes you don't have something to move toward. Oftentimes there is something you're moving on to the next thing or regardless of of where those things are. I think oftentimes. We're surprised by grief, right? Because we've got something good to go to and we've, this is, this is going to be great.
We're going to, we're going to go back home where we're going to go on to this next thing. We're going to start a new job. We're going to move to a new place. This is exciting. And even where it's not exciting. Our, our nature kicks in and we try to make it exciting. Right. I did this when we moved to Malta, I got out YouTube videos of how beautiful Malta was and said, let's, let's look at how great it.
And, and I knew what I was doing, right? Like I knew, I teach this stuff in seminars and, and I was still trying to smack a happy stamp on it and make it good. And I was not allowing space for grief. Right. This is for myself, for my family, for anyone, let's, let's make this happy. And that is not the way to leave.
Well, right. And that's, yeah, that's, that's counterintuitive to what people think is that there's a difference between leaving happy and leaving. Well, right? Leaving happy is ignoring a lot of things. And it's about that emotion that you feel when you get on the plane. Um, and if you can leave happy, great.
But if you haven't resolved the conflict, if you haven't. Thank you. Um, had the conversations you need to have if you hadn't said goodbye to the people, the places, the things that you've experienced. That's not leaving. Well, You might leave happy, but you won't stay that way. That is, I, I was trying to not laugh out loud.
So it wouldn't interrupt your statement because it was so powerful. But I'm just remembering the stack of books. I brought home from the library about India as it was going to be amazing. Amazing. Amazing. And it is. That's true. It was. But what you're doing. Yes. Yeah, it's different. I think there's also a, um, um, it goes back to what we talked about at the beginning that the excitement was in the leaving to go to the thing and there was not one person, one book I read.
No one said you're when you, as you, as you land in India, you're already starting the process of extricating yourself. Everything you do. And every decision you make is 1 step closer to whenever it is that you leave. And it's the same. I think with our work and our project. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say as kind of our wrap up question about.
Being the best. So if we know this, so people start saying, okay, fine, leaving is inevitable. Grief is good. And grief is hard. So they say, I agree with you, Jerry, on all the things you've talked about. How do we still say centered then and present in the middle and not and not just looking towards the end?
How do we, how do we lock into today? And maybe part of its values? Maybe it's part. I don't know. But I guess that would be my last question for you. How do we. Thank you. Yeah. Do our best work today, knowing what's coming to me. Like, there's so many different, there's so many different angles to all of these questions, I think.
And I, I think that, like, that's the big question is when you're leaving. Right. Which is now not. When you get on the plane, right, as you ramp up to it, what's the appropriate amount of attention to give to the next thing versus the now thing and the people who are around you. Right. Um, and I, and I think, I think a ramp is a good way to.
To look at it because, you know, when it starts and because it's so exciting. So you may be, you may be three months, you may be six a month, six months away from the departure date. Right. Um, but you're in the leaving process and as you get closer to it, like you have to pay more attention. To what's coming next, right?
If you don't have a job, you need to find a job. If you don't have a house or home, uh, you need to know where you're going to live. So like, it just, those things are going to demand more of your attention, which also means that the amount of time left to give to the people around you is even smaller than it looks like.
Like, it's not equal to the amount of time until. The departure, um, because you have to pay attention to some other things as well. And so it increases the value even more, but there should be a ramp up, right? Like, and so, especially in those, in those early phases of leaving it's intentionality, right? Like, because if you do what comes naturally, you can't wait to, I mean, you're on Zillow, right?
Like you're finding new places, you're, you're shopping for cars. You're, um, like you're trying to meet people and do, uh, like. The intentionality of. Staying long enough right of being present with these, these people who have poured into your lives is really important. So I don't have a solid answer. And I think that looks different for different people.
But I do think there is an, there's an appropriate way to look at it. Right, which is don't don't leave before you've left. Right? Like, don't don't don't check out. Right? Like, check out of your people. And actually, yeah, the people around you, the places, all of that is so much a part of that such an important part of that that process and they need your attention and we've all done it.
Poorly, and we've seen people who have done it poorly. And like, I love to say 1 of the big surprises, I think, for people is that their issues can fly. And so wherever you go, those issues are going right with you and they'll wake up with you on the other side and they'll still be there 6 months from now.
And that's what leaving well is all about is addressing those issues, resolving the issues where you can, but making sure that you. To the best of your ability, you don't pack them in your bags and take them with you. And you don't, they not only fly, they multiply, right? Like they, you leave them behind and you go away and you've, you've left a mess for other people to clean up.
I have, I have this notebook that I've been jotting things down and it has like all of the Jerry Joan isms that are, that is powerful around your issues can fly. And they can, they can. I've carried some with me and, and I, my first big transition experience, I, I stressed out more my first year of China because of the things I left unresolved back home.
And that was, that was a big, that was a big aha for me was, wow, I brought this stuff. I thought I could fly away from it and I didn't, I brought it with me and I know I left it there too. Right. What is something that we haven't talked about if I mean, we could talk for hours and hours, but absolutely could.
Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything that you want to share that? I haven't asked. I think we've covered a lot of ground here. I think something that you're stepping into, it's something that you're serving people with, is just these, there's, there's so many of these points that are absolutely true of transition and leaving and moving on from one thing to, but they're also, they're also very much life principles, right?
Like, so whether you're, whether you're leaving, or if you're a Stay here. Right. And, and people around you are leaving. That's, that's a whole other podcast. Yeah. Whatever your position is there, there are so many of these principles that just apply to life because none of us gets to do this without change.
And even those of us who, who move on from one thing to the next thing, like it's, it's very. It comes very quickly for us to realize we can't go. You can't go backwards, right? You can go geographically back to a location. But as soon as you move on from it, it keeps moving forward. And so do those people.
Right? Um, so when you go back, it's different and you're different also. And so are there things we haven't talked about yet? Like, is there any? Yep. But we don't have, we don't have time for that, but this is a great conversation that I think would benefit a lot of people, whether they're leaving, staying or somewhere in between.
Thank you, Jerry. Thank you. This has been fun. To learn more about Leaving Well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace, visit naomihattaway.com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system.
We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide, to shift culture, and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host, Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.