13: Karyn Paige on Human Design and the intersection with Leaving Well
Karyn Paige is a Certified Informed Practitioner of Human Design, a mindset coach, facilitator and speaker. Her work approaches personal and professional development from a place of anti-oppression, centering the intersectional experiences of Women of Color. Her own career has evolved from working as a nightclub singer to freelancing as a Wordpress developer, to mentoring women in business and now helping women find alignment through energy work and self-compassion. It’s because of her own long and winding road that Karyn finds herself uniquely qualified to help others find clarity at their own crossroads.
“What if you’re amazing at it? What if literally the coolest thing ever is on the other side of this and you just can’t see it and the only thing in your way is this fear that it’s going to be a big, bad, scary. So just hold space for this idea of what if it’s going to be amazing?”
Additional Quote:
“You need to do the forgiveness ritual for yourself so that you can move on with a clear conscience and with emotional closure. Completing the cycle, being intentional of ‘this is coming to a close’”.
To connect with Karyn or learn more about her work:
Book a Human Design Reading with Karyn
Take the Workplace Transition Archetype Quiz.
To learn more about Leaving Well, click here.
My Bookshop.org Leaving Well library has many resources to support your workplace transition journey!
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This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
Transcript:
What if you're like amazing at it? What if literally the coolest thing ever is on the other side of this and you just can't see it and the only thing in your way is like this, this fear that it's going to be a big, bad, scary. So just hold space for this idea of like, what if it's going to be amazing.
This is Leaving Well, where we unearth and explore the realities of leaving a job, role, project, or title with intention and purpose. And when possible, Joy. I'm Naomi Hattaway, your host. I will bring you experiences and lessons learned about necessary endings in the workplace with nuanced takes from guests on topics such as grief, confidence, leadership, and career development.
Braided throughout will be solo episodes sharing my best practices and leaving well framework. Expect to be inspired, challenged, and reminded that you too can embed and embody the art and practice. Of leaving. Well, as you seek to leave your imprint in this world, Karyn Paige is a certified informed practitioner of human design, a mindset coach, facilitator, and speaker.
Her work approaches personal and professional development from a place of anti oppression centering the intersectional experiences of women of color, her own career has evolved from working as a nightclub singer to freelancing as a WordPress developer. To mentoring women in business and now helping women find alignment through energy work and self compassion.
It's because of her own long and winding road that Karyn finds herself uniquely qualified to help others find clarity at their own crossroads. Karyn, I'm so glad you are with us today. Can you tell me in your own words about your transition and change story? I mean, where do I start, Naomi? I feel like my, the theme of my life is actually transition and change.
Like, if I could sum it all up, it's all subject to change. Period. Keeping it within scope of the conversation, we could keep it professional, personal, I believe that the personal is the professional, and vice versa. But I'm the person, the type of person who essentially has jumped from lily pad to lily pad.
My entire life and that's what feels very comfortable for me. And so they're my, I think my relationship with change is that I'm, I'm used to it and I expect it. Sometimes it feels uncomfortable. I think transition is inherently uncomfortable. And I think the times where I've had the most or the smoothest transition with change has been when there's been some intention.
Um, and I've really been able to think about. What is happening, what my moves are, what my actions are, and also what I can let go of. So, it's interesting that you said that right off the bat. We can expect it. Change and transition, and it can be uncomfortable. I think so many times we think that if we get better at change or get more used to transition, that it's less uncomfortable.
And I'm curious what you would have to say to that. Well, I mean, I feel like it's all kind of like subject to change, but it's also relative. You know what I mean? Like, what is change? Sometimes change is huge and it's life altering. It's a complete 180. And sometimes it's, you know, a simple blip. You know, like you, you weren't expecting to trip on the curb and you did, that was a change.
That was unexpected. And now you have to transition back into your pace, you know, so there's like, when I think of it, it's very flexible. It's very much like a rubber band. And sometimes the stretch is pull is, is like a big pole, meaning the snapback is going to be equally as big. And sometimes it's just like a little wiggle in your.
Leapfrogging from lily pad to lily pad. Are there things that you have kind of learned in a stacking way? So from one lily pad to another, you've learned and taken things with you. And so the next then leap was taking that same things and going and adding onto it. Or is it more of a frogger kind of a thing where it's like, the same things don't apply and you're always stretching yourself.
I think we're always taking the experiences that we've learned. With us in our next phase, right? So for using the Lily pad analogy, everything I've learned on Lily pad, number one, every experience I've had, every feeling I'm taking that with me. It's making me think of like baggage. Right. But essentially I believe that everything is like building the story.
And for me personally, so much of what I've learned has been based on trial and error and things that didn't work out. And so I'm taking those lessons with me. I do believe though, that there's a piece. Where when you enter into something, you kind of have to go with eyes wide open with an intention, because how you enter something I believe is in relationship to how you leave something right.
And so, as you're making that jump, or as you're even deciding I'm going to this new phase. What do I want that to look like? What am I carrying with me? How am I going to communicate all of those things? Yeah, it, what just came to mind for me is like, as you know, we're thinking about transition and what is my story.
A lot of what informs my relationship to transition started way back when I was a teenager, when I was a kid. I... Essentially was very sick for a while in high school, doctors didn't really know what was happening, piecing together all of these various symptoms. What ended up happening though is I had childhood glioma, which is a benign tumor on my brainstem.
And when that tumor was removed, the nerves in my eyes were permanently damaged. And so speaking of relationship to change, I woke up from surgery and I couldn't see the same. Right. And this was right before I was supposed to enroll in driver's ed for school. So that was a thing that I didn't get to do.
I transitioned back into school and my mom tells me the story. She says, you didn't want anybody to know what had happened to you because you didn't want anybody to treat you differently. So I went back into school as if I had full say as if nothing had happened. Right. And so, as I'm thinking about when you enter a situation with a change, with a transition, entering with intention is so important because it impacted every decision that I've made in the future, trying to behave.
And show up in the world as a fully able bodied person, even though I had a disability and how that impacted how it communicated with people, the decisions that I made, the jobs that I went for, the education that I pursued, the relationships that I entered into. I think that has informed literally every decision that I've made.
And now it has been almost 25, 26 years. Thank you for sharing that. And I think that it, what brings, what it brings up for me is. Reminding folks that are listening about the power of that awareness and that intention, because the intention that you talked about and setting that up as you go into the new thing and also setting up space to be aware of how that's working for you.
Did it work? Do you need to pivot? Do you need to take a little bit of what you just did and judge it or lay off a little bit or navigate? And I think for you to then, when you said it, it's impacted everything. Relationships, jobs, education, how you made decisions. That's powerful. It's the type of thing like where, you know, maybe one mundane decision from maybe an emotionally underdeveloped place as a child can, can have a ripple effect.
It's taken me a lot of years, I think, one, to just heal from that without bypassing it, and also get to a place where I could actually communicate what my needs were and admit that it's okay to have needs. And I'm bringing those needs into every situation, every relationship. I really look at everything as just a series of relationships, relationships with ourselves, relationships with our locations, with our jobs, with our spouses, friends.
And all of that. Right. And so even just acknowledging that through a transition or through change, you get to have needs and that's okay. And you get to show up and enter that new relationship right out of the gate saying, Hey, I've got some needs here. Okay. Yeah. And I have an expectation. Maybe we need to collaborate.
Maybe we need to compromise a little bit, but it's, I'm bringing my needs with me wherever I go. And I know what they are. And I really want to be intentional about that. Ooh, that's, can you imagine if we all did that? Game changing. And, and then if we add to what you just said, and also that not only is it a series of relationships, but relationships end, like necessary endings are a part of the cycle.
And so all of those things together then becomes, I wouldn't say unstoppable, but it really becomes a lot more integrated and allows us to embody what we need as we go through all of this. Very that it's like, uh, it, it's like it allows you to manage your expectations, right? Because you're, you're right.
And I feel the same in that relationships and, and that's okay. And we do complete the cycle. Um, sometimes, you know. Even just knowing that and accepting that can be such a relief and can allow you to just hold yourself in so much compassion and hold the other person or the other party in the relationship with compassion as well, because it's going to end for them or it just like it's going to end for you.
And that's okay. So you've kind of talked about this. I think this answer as we've gone, but I'm wondering if you have a way of. Consolidating into three words or three short phrases that you would use to describe your relationship to change and transition. Like I said earlier, I would describe it as subject to change because I don't always feel that zen about it.
Okay. Like, I really don't. I do not always feel grounded about the change. I don't. I'm still a human being who experiences frustration and anger and resistance and grumpiness and all of the things. Right. And so even in that, I'm like, okay, well, that's how I feel about it right now. And then. Just another phrase is like a paraphrase of Bruce Lee, where he says, be like water.
I think a lot of my own personal experience with change and transition has been simply going with the flow. And part of that I think has been, um, a relinquishing of my own needs in order to just fit into what was happening around me, but then also realizing that water is extremely powerful and water can take on the shape of the container that it's in, but it also, like Bruce Lee said, it can crash.
So don't don't get it twisted. You know what I mean? So there is an empowerment element to being like water. I love that. And we talk a lot with clients about riverbanks and using your values as kind of the modern day version of boundaries, where if your values are holding up the riverbanks, the water gets to do what it will so that you don't have seepage so that you don't lose control.
So I love that you brought that up here. Can you talk to me? I mean, I know a little bit of about human design, but talk to us about your work with women in human design and how it can really impact folks, whether it's women BIPOC folks that you work with around the topic of change and transition. Yeah.
Okay. So I actually got introduced to human design when I was at my own like personal professional crossroads and I sought out a mindset coach because I was like, what do I do with all of this entrepreneurial spirit? I just got hired full time at a web development company. And I just like, I'm bursting with this energy and I don't know what to do with it.
And she asked me if I knew what my human design was simply so she could know how to communicate with me. And I was like, I don't even know what you're talking about. And so she said, just go get a free chart. Look it up. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I got the free chart and I was like, I don't understand what this means.
I don't understand what this, this picture is. I don't understand what these key terms are, but there's one thing that just jumped off the computer screen at me and it was not self emotion. Frustration and literally my life flashed before my eyes and I was like every single. Experience I've ever had in my life has made me feel frustrated.
So if you're telling me that there's some sort of like, personal development system that I can look at, that's going to help me not be frustrated anymore, like, signing up. So can you say that again? I did not self meaning like, when you're is that mean that you're worst at your like, not your best and then yours is frustration.
Is that what you're saying? Yeah, so the not self emotion is essentially like, whatever's happening, this is not a correct use of your energy. Point blank period. Not good, not bad. I don't like to put those labels on them, but it's like, this just is not correct for you, boo. And so, through that, I, my, like, special interest Activated.
And I was like, what's human design? I need to know everything right now. Stop what you're doing. And so I essentially just learned that at its core, human design is a system of concepts that can help you bring your life into alignment, figure out how you move as an energetic being like, Hi, we all have these energetic work fields around us.
We're interacting with each other's energy, taking things in, reading things out. So what is your move? What is your strategy for this game of life? And, and how do you learn how to make decisions? We all have an authority that we can turn to within ourselves, as opposed to constantly seeking external authority to guide us and tell us what's right for us.
Even in and of itself, the work that I do specifically centering women of color in the BIPOC experience is reminding us that We get to decide what happens in our lives, and so much of what we are taught from very young ages is that there's always somebody else outside of us who knows better for us than we know for ourselves, who's going to tell us this is the right thing to do.
Just do what I tell you to do and you'll never make a mistake and you'll never go wrong. Don't listen to your body, don't listen to your intuition, don't listen to your emotions, just do what I tell you to do. And so human design is a great way of saying, Oh, no, no, no. Actually. You're the boss of you. You are the leader in your own life, and you have everything you need to make all of the decisions that are going to feel right for you.
And essentially, it just feels very validating and very confirming. Yeah, I thought of a couple of things while you were talking that really are resonating. I want to repeat a little bit. First of all, the statement that you said, we get to decide is so powerful. And the other thing that I would offer for folks that are listening, anyone who might think that human design and this energy work is too woo for you.
Think about how often you might say. Read the room to folks as you're in a meeting or you might say, man, that person just sucked the energy out of the room. This is all the same stuff. And so if you're listening, you're like, this is not my jam. Keep listening because human design is that for me, it has been this look into how do I operate the best?
And what do I need for refueling myself? And how what are the signs that I should use to know when something's maybe a little off? So I really appreciate you sharing about that. So I think what's also been extremely validating. Thanks. For me in my human design journey and also for the people that I work with is just a reminder that it takes all kinds to make the world go around.
There's no one right way to do anything. And even a lot of the work that I do, I love to look at oppressive systems through a human design, intersectional lens, like. I just did a talk called deconstructing oppressive systems with human design and the feedback that I got because everybody there was it was a person of color was like, this is incredibly niche, but also makes incredible sense.
And I was like, yeah, because these systems that we live under, they're all telling us, you don't have any power. You don't get to decide. We're going to make everything feel scarce and feel like there's no abundance and then any of that and then human design is actually like, that's not right. Like, that's incorrect.
What I love about human design is really being able to apply it because it does feel very blue. Right. People are like, yeah, I get it. But what, how can I use this in my life and I'm like, do you make decisions on where you want to live and where you want to work and who you want to be in relationship with.
Do you communicate with people? Do you communicate with yourself? If the answer is yes, and we all do that, then you can actually, and do you feel confused? And like, you don't know what your next step is, and you don't know what your purpose is? You don't even know, like, how to decide whether you want coffee or tea?
Look at human design. It'll help you out. And then it's like super, it becomes this like building block type of you get to stack. And so even thinking about the most mundane decisions, like, do I like taking showers in the morning or at night and connecting with. How do I make that decision and then applying that and getting comfortable with the way you make decisions and then when it comes time to make a bigger decision, like, do I want to move across the country for this job?
Then you're like, Oh yeah, I know how to check in with myself to make that decision or I know what I need, what my process is in order to come to that conclusion. That's it. Exactly. And I loved that you were just highlighting also, it's not about permission. It's about reminders. Of like, some of it feels like, for me, I am a fire starter.I am not a coal tender. And that is my human design. When I finally was told by a dear friend who also does some human design work, I was like, Oh, it's a reminder of everything I've been since I was a child. But I stuffed it down because of being a black biracial woman. All of the things I was told. And so it's a reminder.
I love the nuance between no one's giving me permission to live into myself, but it's a reminder of what I know. The other thing I love that you were talking about is that shower example is perfect. Do I like taking a shower in the morning or do I like taking it at night? It gives this space to experiment and to try things out and then check back in with yourself to be like, Hmm.
That is interesting, and I love that you drew the correlation to them moving across the country for a job, and I'd love for you to talk about what your, what themes are rising up as you're working with your clients around the connection between all of this and workplace transitions and decisions. Yeah, okay, so I find it very interesting as we're talking about energy.
I feel like the people who are drawn to my energy, they want to talk about. The work that they do, a lot of people come to me, they're healers, they're guides, they're service providers. They have a deep need to help others to make a contribution to society, but they have found themselves listening to all of those external messages that were very contradictory to who they are.
And they're like, I don't want to be in this job anymore. But tell me what my gifts are through my human design so that I can not only make an impact on the world, but also get paid. Right. And I'm like, okay, well, let's go because that's actually in your chart. That is literally, I can answer those questions for you just by looking at your human design.
Right. But I just find it very interesting that. A lot of the clients that I work with, they're in a place where they did all the things they were supposed to do, quote, unquote, they followed the American dream. They, you know, did the cookie cutter. There's only one way to success. And then they realized this, not only is this not for me, but it's so misaligned.
Like, it's such a contradiction that I feel it in my body. Like, I've had folks who are like, I needed to take medical leave off of that job. And I'm like, oh, well, that's because you are a completely open and sensitive and empathic person. And so no wonder your body was telling you this place is not right for me.
I have to go because you're just absorbing the negativity of the space that was around you. Right. So, and I, I just find myself working with a lot of very sweet, sensitive souls who. Realize that they need way more rest and that through living under a system of capitalism, that really places a lot of value on how much a person can produce.
They've tried to follow that and it's impacted their lives negatively. And so a lot of the work that we do is actually just being, well, what do you do in a day? How do you spend your time? Does it feel satisfying? Does it not feel satisfying? Do you feel like your flow is interrupted? Like what's going on?
And then kind of unpacking that and being like, okay, well, here's what else is possible. And based on your energy and your sensitivity and all of that, here's, are some ideas that can work for you. And so you can actually get to that place where you can be making the impactful contribution that you really see for yourself.
Well, and I think when you were talking about the sweet souls that often gravitate to you, there's a lot of social impact movement builders, nonprofit staff, they've signed up for the work because of what they know that they can do in their impact. So, then it becomes really, there's so much tension then around, but this isn't working for me, but how could I possibly say no to this work?
Just because I need something because look at the community that needs me or look at what I've started. And so I'd also love to hear a little bit from you around something that might be shocking or surprising to hear around what happens when we drop into the knowing that can come with something like human design around making decisions.
I think what feels very shocking about it is how easy, easeful it becomes, and how attached we are to resistance and friction and things being hard, where it's like, no, it gets to be easy. And, and actually, those times when it was the easiest for you were probably the times that you were following your human design strategy and simply not knowing it, and that's not a coincidence.
Now you simply just know what, what's going on and just do more of that and release everything else. But we love, like, Lorne Hill, It could all be so simple, but you would rather make it hard because we're used to it being hard. We're told, that's another message we're told, and like, everything has to be hard.
Work has to be hard. The struggle is real. Like, if you're doing the work, you know, you sleep when you die, like, all that kind of stuff. And I'm like, actually... What can we just try opposite day for just a second? Okay, I love that challenge because that's another place where it can take the human design the woo out of it and make it so practical.
Just try opposite day and and we'll have links in the show notes around where people can find you and where they can look at their human design and learn more about it. But that would be an amazing challenge for listening to this podcast is try opposite day and see how that works for you. I also love that you said no wonder.
No wonder, and then insert any of the blanks, no wonder you're tired, no wonder you're angry, no wonder you're frustrated. My not self is anger. I've grown up thinking that that was where my, like, righteousness came from. But then when I realized, when I tried Opposite Day, oh, peace. Oh, how does peace feel?
How does peace feel when I don't start my mornings until 10 a. m. with work calls? It feels hella amazing. Yes. Yes. And let me tell you something. Okay. I do believe in righteous anger. This is not an emotional bypassing conversation, especially, I believe, like I have a very soft spot in my heart for manifestor orotypes, especially women of color, especially black women.
This is a very hard place to be in society. Because manifestos are here to initiate, to inform, to shake things up, to say the hard thing, to initiate but not do all of the labor, not carry the burden on the shoulders, right? And so if you are in a socialized black woman body, our society's not checking for that.
Our society's like, do all the labor. Be as quiet as possible. Wait for permission. Wait for your turn. Right? And so all of that is to say that no wonder you would feel angry living in a society like that. Right? But that anger specifically for like a manifesto or a type, depending on the situation is really, again, just the universe telling you the energy is off here.
Something is wrong. No wonder you feel angry when you see certain things, but how can you channel that anger into something that allows you to feel peace, which for the manifest or type is. The signature emotion, letting you know you're on the right track, right? And so then it's really about getting curious.
That's another thing I love to do is like, what else is in there? Well, okay. If you've been doing the thing that you, you know, you want to make the impact, but it's exhausting you. Let's figure out a different way to make the impact. So it doesn't exhaust you. What else is in there? So, so I love that you just talked about that because I'm a manifester.
And so that spoke directly to my heart. Could you do that same kind of a quick for the other types? Of course I can. Okay, so let's start with generators simply because most of the people on this planet are generators or manifesting generators. Generators are here in the workplace to have a lot of Energy around work around life, right?
But the key is not to fall into the trap of being a worker be or a worker, a workaholic, but actually embracing that. You're a builder. You're a creator and that takes time. There's a need to release urgency for generators and also the work that you do that you. Your workforce energy is meant to feel deeply satisfying, so it's okay to to work, work, work, work, work.
If it feels satisfying to you, if it turns you on, if it energizes you. And just because you can do something, that doesn't mean you should. That's something I tell all generators and all manifesting generators because you have the energy for it. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Specifically for manifesting generators, the same thing applies to you.
But I also want you to visualize what it's gonna look like once you say yes to that thing. Once you're like, I'm gonna turn on my. Powerful, sacred energy, start building, start creating, and sometimes you don't know if it's a yes or a no until you're in it for about three months. And then you're like, actually, I thought it was a yes, but it's a no.
You can leave. Just leave. Because you will, you will be trapped by your own success because you have the energy for it. Generators, it's a little bit harder to leave. That's why it's important to really honor whether this is going to be a yes or a no for you. For projectors. Y'all do not have a defined sacral center, which means that you don't have that really consistent, powerful workforce energy the way generators and manifesting generators do, but the world has told you to behave like you're a generator.
So I find with a lot of projectors, they find themselves with a to do list that's 18 items long, and they are really trying to like win the gold medal for being hyper productive, which is exhausting. And really for projectors, what it's about for you is working efficiently, and that's a gift that you have, but that doesn't mean you can weaponize your efficiency in order to be hyper productive.
Okay. And so for projectors, the gift that you bring to the workplace is actually to guide others and to bring out the best in others. To actually help the generators focus and build and create. But you are more of like a project manager and overseer. I love to refer to projectors as being like the Yodas or the Mr.
Miyagis or the Sister Mary Clarence from Sister Act 2. And I hope that those references resonate because I've been working with a lot of folks who are under the age of 30 and they have no idea what I'm talking about. But that's what projectors are here to do. So I love to see a projector in a, in a director role, in a managerial role, which is very difficult.
If you're. Climbing your way up the organizational ladder, then in the meantime, if you're not quite there yet, try to do something that is like no stress, no brainer, because of the undefined sacral for manifestors, y'all are here to just shake stuff up and give the vision to the people and tell them what to do and then inform.
Influence, initiate, ignite, but not implement. And you can do, you can do it independently. There's another I word. You don't need anybody, but it helps to have a team because you're not here to implement. So don't be trying to wear all the hats and do all the things. And then finally for reflectors. Y'all are super unique in a perfect world.
You would be consultants and just show up and be like, here's what's wrong with your organization. I don't feel good here. The vibe is off here. So if I don't feel good, y'all don't feel good. Okay. Cause I'm just a reflection of my environment and the people around me. So here's how y'all can fix it. And then I'm going to go move on and go help somebody else do the same thing.
I'm only here for a little while. And if that's. Again, thinking, I love to think about things in terms of like, are you trying to get a jobby job? Are you trying to do a career? Cause we all have bills to pay. Okay. Like let's hold space for the world we're living in while also hold space for what we want to create.
Right? So reflectors, it's going to be an unconventional path for you. It's going to be a flexible work schedule for you. It's not going to be Monday through Friday, nine to five sitting at a desk the whole time. It might be 3m to 5m. Then you rest. And then it's like 6pm to 8pm two days a week. So you get to know that for you, and then you get to figure out how you want to make that work for you.
So that would be how I'd sum up, kind of like, generic human design workplace readings based on the aura types. I love that, and thank you for doing that. I know that there's so much to dig into with each person's unique human design and their chart, and so If you do not know yours, I would highly recommend you get it.
Contact Karyn to learn more about the deep nuance. What would you say that leaving well means to you? And that can be in your own personal journey. It can mean from a human design lens or a sum of both. For me, it, the first thing that comes up is just simply completing the cycle. Right. And whatever that means in a lot of ways of, um, like if you think about it through the lens of relationship and relationships, and sometimes you need to forgive, that doesn't mean you necessarily need to have a conversation with the person that you're forgiving.
You need to do the forgiveness ritual for yourself so that you can move on with a clear conscience and with emotional closure. So completing the cycle and again, being intentional of this is coming to a close. And I'm going to start something new. So for me, actually something that I didn't really learn until very recently was I personally have difficulty transitioning even in a day, like, and so I have to create stops and starts between tasks.
And I think the same thing can be applicable to leaving. Well, it's like create that hard stop, have a little buffer space and then enter the next thing. Yes, I 100 percent agree. It brings to mind the thought of ritual and practice and again, experimentation. So as we wrap up, Karyn, is there anything that you haven't shared that you would like to make sure to tell to the good people?
I just want to reiterate how important compassion is. As you're leaving, as you're transitioning, as you're changing, because there's already so much judgment happening in the world, the last thing that's going to serve you is you judging yourself, especially from an invisible authority figure who might not even be there.
And so if it feels uncomfortable or you feel confused, hold yourself with the gentlest compassion you possibly can. And then once you do that, ask yourself. Well, what if it's gonna be amazing? Because we often, when we don't know what's happening, we automatically go to the worst possible scenario. I'm like, okay, yeah, that might be true.
But what if, what if you're like amazing at it? What if literally the coolest thing ever is on the other side of this and you just can't see it and the only thing in your way is like this, this fear that it's going to be a big bad scary. So just hold space for this idea of like, what if it's going to be amazing.
It's a beautiful way to end this conversation. Karyn, thank you so much for being with us and for all of your wisdom and your work in the world. Thanks for having me to learn more about leaving well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace. Visit naomihattaway.com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide to shift culture and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host. Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.