37: Jerry Dugan, Leaving the Health Care System, and Leaving Well
“People are six times more likely to stick around if they regularly receive positive recognition for the work they are doing. And it’s got to be specific recognition that ties into the greater good. Like, how did your task or your project or your work on a daily basis lead to this metric here or to this strategic outcome?”
Jerry Dugan is a public speaker, author, and the host of Beyond the Rut, a podcast about helping you achieve your dreams and thrive in your faith, family, and career to experience a life beyond the rut.
Jerry’s own life growing up through divorce, his dad’s attempted suicide, and combat have built within him resilience and the perspective that life is too short to live it stuck in a rut.
Since 2015, Jerry has been the voice behind the Beyond the Rut podcast, a source of empowering narratives and actionable insights that propel listeners beyond stagnation and towards more fulfilling lives. In 2023, he encapsulated his transformative philosophy in a book of the same title, using the R.U.T. framework to redefine success and breathe purpose into everyday existence.
In the dynamic world of corporate transformation, Jerry Dugan stands at the helm of BtR Impact, LLC as its CEO and Senior Leadership Consultant. With a focused mission, he guides leaders to amplify employee engagement, ensuring they achieve peak performance while crafting a seamless blend of work, life, and personal values.
Jerry’s pragmatic leadership approach, known as the T.E.N.T. framework, stems from a rich background that includes commanding roles during Operation Iraqi Freedom and corporate healthcare endeavors. This framework is his compass for cultivating leaders across all tiers, fostering teams rooted in trust, collaboration, and transparency to yield concrete business outcomes.
Jerry’s vision doesn’t stop at breaking free from life’s ruts; he envisions a life lived expansively. Residing in Dallas, Texas, he savors the tranquil ’empty nest’ phase with his partner, Olivia, after raising a son and daughter into adulthood. They now share their home with three feline companions and a loyal dog named Oreo.
“Leaders have to find out how to serve the needs of the organization and the customer by also - and probably first and foremost - serving the needs of their people.”
Additional Quotes:
My term of service had a date that ended it. There was a very official - unless you re-enlist - last day. So it was like a graduation for me in that respect. Every transition after that though, it's much more fluid. I'm like, wait, am I allowed to leave? Is today the day? Is tomorrow the day? How does this work? Do I have to give a two week notice? Can I leave now? So it's been much more fluid since then, but, I would say bittersweet in most cases.
A big number one that you often hear at an exit interview is, I didn't see opportunities for growth here. They were offering it there so I saw career progression. I saw skills development, responsibility expansion that wasn't being offered here, no matter how much I asked.
How we lead each other is nothing like what we see in the movies. We don't just yell orders and people say yes sergeant, no sergeant. To get that kind of loyalty and obedience, you gotta treat them like people. You gotta genuinely lead them as a human. You're a human leading other humans and you got to respect their dignity. You got to respect their self worth, their worth.
People are six times more likely to stick around if they regularly receive positive recognition for the work they are doing. And it's got to be specific recognition that ties into the greater good. Like, how did your task or your project or your work on a daily basis lead to this metric here or to this strategic outcome?
Stay mobile, stay adaptable, and create that safe space for your team to thrive.
Do it [leaving well] in a way that you preserve the work that you've done. You preserved as many of the relationships as you could, and you've honored the organization on the way out the door. That's the best way to leave well, while also still being true to yourself. You got to be true to yourself and recognize that you are leaving for the right reasons.
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Transcript:
Leaders have to find out how to serve the needs of the organization and the customer by also, and probably for first and foremost, serving the needs of their people.
This is Leaving Well, where we unearth and explore the realities of leaving a job, role, project, or title with intention and purpose. And when possible, I'm Naomi Hattaway, your host. I will bring you experiences and lessons learned about necessary endings in the workplace with nuanced takes from guests on topics such as grief, confidence, leadership, and career development.
Braided throughout will be solo episodes sharing my best practices and leaving well founded. Framework expect to be inspired, challenged, and reminded that you too can embed and embody the art and practice of leaving well as you seek to leave your imprint in this world. Jerry Dugan is a public speaker, author, and the host of Beyond the Rutt, a podcast he's hosted since 2015 about helping you achieve your dreams and thrive in your faith, family, and career.
To experience a life beyond the rutt. In 2023, he encapsulated his transformative philosophy in a book of the same title, using the RUT framework to redefine success and breathe purpose into everyday existence. In a dynamic world of corporate transformation, Jerry Dugan stands at the helm of BTR Impact LLC as its CEO and Senior Leadership Consultant.
With a focused mission, he guides leaders to amplify employee engagement, ensuring they achieve peak performance while crafting a seamless blend of work, life, and personal values. Jerry's vision doesn't stop at breaking free from life's ruts, he envisions a life also lived expansively. Residing in Dallas, Texas, Jerry savors the tranquil empty nest phase with his partner Olivia after raising a son and daughter into adulthood.
They now share their home with three feline companions and a loyal dog named Oreo. Jerry is a fan of podcasting, backpacking, and did he mention podcasting? He loves a good sci fi movie like Dune, and his favorite way to spend an afternoon is hiking on his way to a campsite with a vista view. Jerry, I'm excited to have you on.
So I would love to start kind of just diving right in to your rich background. Uh, one that includes Operation Iraqi Freedom and A long stint in corporate health care. So I, I'm curious to know what was your experience with leaving, quitting and pivoting from those experiences. Yeah. Uh, army was bittersweet.
It's, um, I don't want to say it's like an abusive relationship, but it is a very. Very trying experience because you wind up hating the army life almost every day. You're like, Oh, this sucks. I'm doing this, you know, a little detail I'm doing this task. And what happened? All this cool army training they've paid for.
I just mow the grass or I watch people mow the grass, but then you had that one moment and like, whether it's a mission or you save somebody's life or you help build somebody's career, you're like, you know what, that was awesome. That's why I signed up and leaving the army was the same way I was excited because it meant I wouldn't be separated from my family ever again on a deployment.
And at the same time, I was really proud of the work I did on my deployment and, and, uh, the experiences I had. And, you know, I was at. 27 years old, having done things that my dad had never done, that my uncles had never done, my aunts, uh, lots of friends from high school hadn't gone through there, except for those of us who did join the army and Marine Corps and all those services.
So it was bittersweet. It was, but there was like a very set transition point. It was, you know, a farewell. My, my term of service had a date. That ended it. So there was a very official, unless you re enlist, this is your last day. So it was like a graduation for me in that respect. Every transition after that though, it's, uh, it's much more fluid.
I'm like, wait, am I allowed to leave? Is today the day? Is tomorrow the day? How does this work? Do I have to give a two week notice? Can I leave now? Uh, so it's been much more fluid since then, but, uh, I would say bittersweet in most cases have been my transitions out of a role. And, uh, for the most part, most of my transitions out have been on a positive note.
You know, they say you don't quit your job, you quit your boss. And for me, I've, I fall in that. It depends category. You know, uh, I've had jobs I left because the opportunity ahead was just too good to pass up and it needed my boss to kick me out the door and say, You need to go. And if you don't take this job, I will fire you so you have to go take the job.
I'm like, what? And they're like, I would be holding you back if I kept you here. And I'm like, wow, I love you, man. And then I've had, you know, leaders where it was like, no, I'm, I'm going to follow that old adage of I'm leaving my boss. And so I've had a couple of jobs like that in my life. So I've had, I've had both.
And so it really depends on, can I find the positive? The growth experience out of that. And then if it's one of those situations where I left a bad leader or toxic leader, how do I shake that off? How do I regroup and heal? So I don't bring that junk into the next role and truly treat it as a fresh start.
I love that you said that about the date. My husband is a Marine Corps vet and we use the DD 214 a lot, you know, and there is that, that date certain that is. The leaving and I had not thought about it before and we don't do that in almost any other instance. We don't celebrate the day we don't mark it.
So I'm glad that you brought that up. I'm glad you brought the DD 214 because, you know, that's something no other agency really does organization like you leave with a transcript of your career on one sheet of paper. So you're. Your start date, your end date, where did you go to basic training or bootcamp for the Marine Corps?
Uh, where were you stationed throughout your career? What kind of awards did you win? Uh, and even though they're all like very short little statements, uh, in list form, all of them trigger some kind of memory of your experience, especially the positive, uh, while you were serving in the military and you get to take that with you, you get to show people, Hey, this is my DD 214, just don't copy the social security number there.
And. It's also a great reminder, like when people bring up military stuff, I'm like, Oh, wait, I've got a DD 214 that says I'm not supposed to care about that anymore. There's that other thing too, of when, when we leave jobs, especially if it's been a bad job, bad boss, toxic boss, there's the whole idea of References and the DD 214 and the military service also marks whether you were honorably discharged or not.
It's very plain and simple. Yes. And I just think how much more interesting it could be for all of us as we leave jobs, roles, positions, etc. If it was that simple. Yes. They did a good job. No, they didn't. Yeah, it could be amended to that if you leave other than honorable, you know, given a certain timeframe, if you keep your nose clean, uh, you can go back to the military and they can upgrade it.
But there is some note somewhere that says, yeah, you initially got out with an other than honorable, uh, and then a year later, we. Upgraded it or, uh, know you went to prison for that thing. You will never get hired, right. dishonorable discharge. Uh, so yeah, it's really cool. And then again, just that, that regrouping of, cause I've left some toxic work environments and.
For a while, we're talking months to a year as I'm going to other employers or even other potential clients, having that doubt in the back of my head, like, was I a good employee? Was I a good leader there? Uh, did I really live up to the things I'm telling them I can do? I mean, I got fired or I had to quit because I couldn't manage my leader.
Uh, so those doubts are always there. But again, DDT 14 reminds you of the good things. It's like, we're not going to remind you of the 48 hours straight of no sleep. Yeah. We're going to remind you that you got an army commendation medal with a Valor device. We're going to remind you of those things. Um, and then you got the honorable discharge and it's like, yes.
And I know some organizations do work with this idea of the employee being able to walk away with a transcript of their employment while they were there and. I know some employers don't want to do it because they're like, well, we spent all this money on training and developing, and then we're going to give them the tool to walk away with a one or two page transcript of all the awesome things they did that we paid for.
Let's say, yeah, and it involves some technology. And so I know the bigger companies are playing around with this, but the idea is you take your. HR management system. You take your learning management system and you funnel that into like a learning record store, LRS and it's somewhere in there that there's, I think, another layer of technology I don't fully understand, but you can walk away with a true transcript that says, I started at this company in 2019.
I came in as a consultant. Uh, now in the span of five years, I got promoted to supervisor, the manager, the director. So that's in there like a DD 214. And then on top of that, it's like education and training. It's not just the stuff I earned as a degree outside the organization. They'll say this guy completed new employee orientation on this date.
He completed nursing. So I'm thinking specifically health care, uh, nursing orientation by this date, he went into new grad residency as a nurse because he was a new graduate nurse, uh, on this date, graduated six months later on this date, uh, went off and got certified here, here, here, and here, like that edge, that record store comes together and, and says, Oh, and he also spoke at these places.
So a bit of a curriculum vitae, spoke at these conferences on our behalf. Here you go. Boom, boom, boom. And it's like, yeah. wherever I go now, I've got this. And, uh, if you have an organization, another organization that has those kinds of capabilities, you can even download your data file and then upload it to theirs.
And then it's like, boom, it's all there. The system on the backend will confirm. Yeah. That's that guy's not saying any BS without giving away any company secrets. Uh, it's kind of a future of work. I learned about this in 2018. Like this is what's coming leveraging tools like AI, uh, to really. Communicate with all this big data going on inside of HRIS, uh, platforms.
Well, and I think about the concept of stay interviews. So that's kind of a thing too, that's happening in kind of the future of work. Instead of just doing exit interviews, which primarily benefits the company or the organization to make sure there's nothing that they should fear is coming their way in a lawsuit or what have you.
Stay interviews being something that you conduct throughout the term of an employee's tenure. And I just cannot think of. A whole lot of reasons why employees employers wouldn't do stay interviews or wouldn't do that learning management system concept where they're tracking and being able to give that to you as an employee.
It also it also shows your as an employer, your commitment to the development of your people. Yes. You know, the, the big two reasons why people were leaving their jobs in 2022, I mean, they were like a top five that Gallup came up with. And I'm, I'm lazy. So I'm like, I can't remember all five, but I can remember two big buckets.
A big bucket. Number one was the one that you often hear at an exit interview, which is, I didn't see opportunities for growth here. They were offering it there. And so I saw career progression. I saw skills development. Um, yeah. Responsibility expansion that wasn't being offered here, no matter how much I asked.
So that's kind of bucket number one. Bucket number two is a very broad one. And that is, I didn't feel cared for by the organization. My coworkers could not care less if I disappeared tomorrow. Um, they'll show up to my going away party because they want the cake and the potluck, uh, or the, the catered lunch, whatever it is my boss is going to do to say farewell.
On a regular basis, they didn't notice if I came in 10 minutes late or left, they, they would notice if I left early, they would notice if I wasn't there for them, but not if I was sick at home with like COVID, you know, if I had to pick up my child from daycare, I always got grief for that. A lot was done to make me feel not cared for versus cared for.
And I think something like what we're talking about, if you can walk away with a transcript, uh, have stay interviews, even if you don't want to call them, stay interviews, check ins that just say, this is what you're doing. That's having a great impact on what we do goes a long way to communicate that you care about your employee.
And this is how I've seen you grow in just the last three to six months. From there, let's talk about how do you want to grow in the next three to six months? What do you want to do next? Preferably here in my department, helping me achieve these goals. What would you like to do next? There's something we said about that question.
How do you want to grow in the next three to six months? I think the benefit of something like a check in or a stay interview, you can also understand what. talents do you have that we haven't utilized yet? What projects do you see that you could help implement or get over the finish line? There's so many ways that we can have better employee engagement.
I'm curious from the standpoint of your corporate healthcare space in the world, if there's a particular or powerful process that you either implemented for yourself or that you wished you had as you were planning your departure. A lot of it goes back to, you mentioned my book at the very beginning that originally was a bucket list item for my podcast.
So my podcast has been a passion project of mine since 2015, started with a couple of friends of mine and, and the goal for that show, at least deep down, like we don't share it. Out openly, but this was the opening driver. And that was, we wanted to inspire Christian men between 35 and 45 who are married, they've got children and they work some kind of professional level career.
So manager and above, we want to inspire them to find success on their terms. Uh, what's on their heart in their faith, their family, and their career. And it was because we were seeing men either go all in on their faith walk. And be a martyr, you know, go through divorce, have estranged children. And we're like, that does so much to discredit you as a follower of Jesus.
So that's the religious side. I'll, I'll back off of that a bit for everybody. So that was one thing we would see, or they would be all in on their family and make career sacrifices that could have been balanced out so that they wouldn't have the financial struggles that now are putting pressure on the family.
And so it's like, okay. But family is important. You don't want to choose a job over family, uh, but you also want to do the things that will support your family. So how do you balance now the next piece, that career so that you're finding success there and not sacrificing your relationship with your family or your relationship with yourself.
And so that was how the show started fast forward about seven years later and it. I realized I uncovered the original business plan of beyond the rut from 2015, uh, after months of arguing, we had, it turned out a two page document that said, this is what we want to accomplish in the life of the show. And year number one at the year end of year, number one, our plan was to have written a manifesto, like a 20 page manifesto of this is why the show exists.
This is how we want to change the world here. The stories and the topics we're going to bring forward as a result, you know, download it for free at this place. And I was like, wow, seven years later. Not a single word has been written about this thing. Uh, and so I went through this process of, is it an important enough goal?
Like, do I still see the show going on? I mean, obviously I, I took it over, been running it solo since 2021. So in 2022, it was like, yeah, this is an important thing to have done. And some friends challenged me and they said, we want to read it. So. And what started as a manifesto became a 124 page book that took you through the RUT framework.
So recognize the rut you're in, understand where you want to go, and then take action to get there. Because that was the pattern I realized that in over 300 episodes, the interviews I had done with over 250 guests was just that. They had a moment in their life where they recognized they were stuck in a rut.
They understood where they really wanted to be in life. What success would look like for them in all those categories. And then what was that practical thing they did to take action and stay on course until they found that success or until they found themselves on that path toward that success. And I was like, wow.
Boom. Okay. So what are the, what are the tools they went through? What are the things they considered? And, uh, and one thing we always talked about on the show and still do to this day is the five Fs. So what does success look like in your faith walk? And they're not just important pillars, but they're also important in priority for me and, uh, for some of the hardcore listeners of the show.
So first and foremost, your faith walk, whether it's religion or just, this is my crusade on how to make the world a better place for everybody. It's followed by your family. You know, so you've got that bigger reason why you want to live. How does that fit into your family? How does that pour in and reflect in your family?
Are you on the same page and aligned there? And then from there, how does it affect your, your physical and emotional mental fitness? So you gotta, you gotta be fit because at the core of all this, if you're not physically and emotionally fit, everything's going to fall apart. So that centerpiece is there.
And then finances, you do have to have money to kind of fund the things you want to do. But it's not the first thing on the list, it's fourth. It's like, It's there because it supports the other three, uh, as well as the fifth thing, which is your future growth. So I look at life in the lens of the five Fs.
I look at my career in the lens of the five Fs. You know, how does this impact my faith, my family, my fitness, my finances, and my future possibilities? Am I stuck in a rut right now? How does that compare to where I want to be? And then what do I do to take action to get there? And so when I was reaching the end of my corporate career, just A year ago from the time we're recording this, I was, I was devastated because somebody on my team, I said, I'm done.
I'm out without going into a whole lot of detail. Uh, but I already knew this was brewing. I knew quiet quitting was brewing in my team and I was getting to the bottom of it. Like, what are the things that are satisfiers for your job? I was doing rounding with my employees. Like, what do you love about working here?
What would you wish we did differently? So you wouldn't be so. Dissatisfy, like what's a dissatisfier? Uh, what can we do to remove those or mitigate them? And you know, keep in mind we're a lean team. We don't have all the resources other organizations have, but what would make this worthwhile for you to stay?
And they were sharing that with me. Well. A force comes along and throws that all the way all out the window and really just says, I don't care what you guys figure out this is the way it's going to be and you're either on my highway or you're off, go find your own highway and that's why the person had quit and that started the whole chain reaction next person just shared with me, well, I'm as soon as I find a job, I'm, I'm gone.
We love working for you. We can't work for this environment. And I was like, Oh man. Yeah. And it kept me up all Labor Day weekend. I was just like, It happened, the whole thing happened on a Thursday. Uh, the source of the trouble took Friday off. Originally, that wasn't the plan, but, I think that source knew I was going to do a confrontation that day, and the person didn't want to be around for it.
So I had Friday to think about this. I had Saturday, Sunday, and finally Monday comes around. I'm still tormented by this. And it was my wife who came forward and said, You know, You're the host of a show called beyond the rut. I was like, yeah, you're writing a book right now about how to get unstuck from a rut.
And I'm like, yeah, are you paying attention to it? I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, you've spent the last four days wallowing in misery, wondering what am I going to do on Tuesday when I go back to work because of what's unfolded. So I don't care what your decision is. I'm fully supportive. But I also want you to know, I want my husband back.
And when she said that, it was like, everything snapped into place. You know, the book, you know, the five Fs, the framework. I was like, all right, I'm sitting here wondering how am I going to fix my career? Not just my career. How am I going to fix this team from falling apart? How am I going to fix my career at the same time?
Because I have some choices. I could take the fall for everything that just went down, because I think that's how things are being set up. And if I decide to grin and bear it, I've got to rebuild this team. And so that means I had to answer the awkward question of, so why did three out of four people quit in the last six months?
And it's like, gosh, how do I fall on that sword and be truthful? And the truth was I couldn't. And so to hear my wife say she wanted her husband back though, that, that just lit the bell or the light bulb for the family. And I was like, okay, so am I trying to preserve an income here at the detriment of my family?
And I was like, no, my family comes before that income. I could find more income somewhere. Might be a challenge. We got some savings. It's fine. Uh, but then. My wife's like, yeah, you're, you're just wallowing in misery. So it was like now fitness, that emotional fitness, I was in misery for four days straight.
But then my wife goes on to share. Yeah. And our kids have observed when they came to visit us, cause we're empty nesters. So they don't see me every single day. They thought something was wrong with my wife and I. Cause at the end of their visit, they would turn to my wife when I'm not around. They're like, are you and dad?
Okay. If you need a place to stay, we've got an extra bedroom. Just, just let us know. And, and Liv would be like, no, we're, we're fine. We're not anywhere near that, but his job is stressing him out. And they're like, Oh man, I hope that all works out for him. So she's sharing with this, this all with me. And I'm like, Oh wow.
So now on an emotional level, I'm not doing as well. And at some point I'm looking in the mirror and I'm like. When did I get my double chin back? And I turned around, I looked at my scale, and I'm like, When's the last time I stood on this thing? And I stood on it. Now, the last time I stood on that scale, I weighed like 175 pounds.
It turned out it had been over a year. And when I stood on it again, it came out to 233 pounds. So I tacked on about what, 60 pounds in the course of a year. And I'm like, where did that come from? And it was from stress eating. It was from not exercising. It wasn't, I wasn't getting more than four hours of sleep at night.
All of that. Centered on my work environment and so that was the process I went through and it led me to that final question Okay, so my faith walk is fine. I still pray I read my Bible and I'm doing my best to live up to everything That's in there But my family is concerned that my wife and I are gonna split my wife wants her husband back.
Okay big red flags I need to pay attention to that my emotional and physical health have taken a dip a huge one I need to address that. I'm making a nice six figure income. I've never earned before in my life. That's what I have at stake. If I walk away now of all these things, what's important to me?
Well, family and fitness. Boom. Okay. Can I preserve the job? Can I stay and make a change for the better? And the answer was no, and I'm like, okay, knowing the answer, my choice then is stay and grin and bear it or get out of there, um, or grin and bear it. People try to offer a third option, stay there, suck it up, drive on and go find another job just like everybody else did.
And I couldn't do it. It was just like, no, I, with the things that have gone down, a line has been drawn in the sand and I have to take a side one way or the other. There was no play the middle road and then sneak out of there it just from a moral basis ethical basis I couldn't do it that there's no way and So yeah, the decision was I gotta go I can and we agreed my wife and I agreed we could take three months off And in the new year Job hunt or start your business decide though by the end of the three months decide I think it was a month into my hiatus and I'm like, I'm gonna start a business and I'm gonna give it a go And if it works great, if it doesn't work I'm in a field where I can easily get picked up in some way shape or form either as a freelancer or you know take a step down in a level or just stick to my guns and get in as a director again.
So I have lots of options to play with and I've just been building a business since yeah, November of 2022. I love it. I love also the process of it could be this, it could be this, or it could be this and using the the five Fs as a framework to help check in with yourself is really powerful. I'm curious what you would say to describe your relationship to change and transition and maybe there's some things from I know you, you talk about your childhood and some like adverse situations from your childhood.
I don't know if that young adulthood. Yeah, or time in the military. How has that impacted your relationship to change and transition? And how would you describe it now? It's a lot of questions in one, but it's a weird duality. Uh, it's kind of like Joker from full metal jacket in a way, uh, the duality of man.
So in A lot of respects. My family will attest to this. I love trying new things. You know, if we're in a new city, I don't want to go to the chain restaurants. I want to go that off the beaten path. Only the locals go there. It's got a culture of its own, a history of its own. And I want to learn about that community through their food at this local restaurant.
The rest of my family's not like that. They're like, Nope. We know McDonald's is safe. We know what to get when we get there. They're like, but look at this one. They're like, dad, it looks dangerous. I'm like, that's part of it, isn't it? And they're like, no dad. Like, oh man, are we going, we don't understand the menu.
It's in the, that just freaks them out. So I have that side of me. I want to try new things. I want to go see new parts of the world, hike a new trail, those kinds of things where I don't seem to like. Change as much is that, um, and it's more on a, like a community dynamic in the sense of, I like it when everybody is driving well together and I don't want that to change.
I know people change and I know that conflict does arise, but you know, when, when somebody has to get booted out, it's like, Oh, but did we abandon them? Did we do everything we could to save them? But I'll take people through a process. Like, why do we need to change? Why do we need to go that direction? So do I pause everybody now or do we roll forward?
So how are we going to communicate this? Got to shift this way to meet the needs of the customer, to meet the needs of our team and the organization. If the shift is just because I'm the leader and my preferences, we go that way. I'm going to drag my heels a bit and I'm going to do everything in my power to slow that, that leaders roll down a bit.
And. Talk them through it. Ask questions to see if they're really just on a whim, because I want blue instead of purple, we go this way, you know, what's really most important to them. And, and so that sometimes, in fact, it got me the reputation where I used to work before, where I used to work, uh, that Jerry doesn't like rapid change in the last minute.
And it's like, well, I can handle it. I mean, I've been in combat, you know, one minute. Things are this way. And then an explosion says, no, we're going that way. Now we got to throw that plan out the window because go there anymore. But if it's not a necessary change, then I will slow it down a little bit and just make sure we have all the pieces in place that it's well thought out.
Yeah. What's interesting about what you were saying is It, it felt like maybe we say that we are conflict avoidant or we point fingers and say someone's conflict avoidant. But what came up when you were talking is maybe we're just trying to prevent community or client harm. Yeah. And for where I am on the disc, that is a big motivator for me.
I'm, uh, a strong SI, uh, on disc. So the s really loves harmony among the group. Uh, will even defer my own. Uh, desires, if that means the greater good will be served by it and I'll find satisfaction from that. And then the thing that demotivates me or really breaks my heart is when there is conflict, uh, more so when there's unnecessary conflict, when you see people butting heads just simply because they're having a bad day and they're willing to throw away all that team cohesion and relationship just because they want to feel empowered or, you know, In control and it's like, oh gosh, so many wrong things here.
And you know, it's not necessary. Yeah. I'm a, I'm a Heidi, uh, with a modified eye that had to come up because of my Heidi. Um, and actually for you listening, if you have not already taken the workplace transition archetypes quiz, that is based on the desk profile. Um, so each of the four archetypes. So if you were listening and have not taken it yet, you can go to Naomi had a way.
com forward slash quiz and find out which archetype you are. I'm curious if there's something about change and transition, and it could be change or transition, that people might be shocked or surprised to hear you say. Oh man, change happens. I think that's, you know, I've seen a lot of people resist change because they don't want to lose something.
And the reality is change is always going to happen. And, um, another phrase I love to live by is that if you're not growing, you're dying. And so you got to change, you got to learn to change, uh, you got to learn to reinvent yourself, even, you know, it's like, I maybe have some core values that never change, but how do you go about them and still align to those core values is very important and, and your perspective.
needs to be challenged on a regular basis. And for me, being an army brat, I moved every two to three years. So I had a new set of friends. And because being in the military community, whether I moved or not, every two to three years, I had a new set of friends every six months because they moved and people moved in.
And so you learn very quickly. I need to build new relationships. I need to build new connections and learn about people a lot faster. What, what is good about them? Because these are the people I'm going to live with and go to school with for the next six months, uh, until more people switch out. And, um, so I've learned to embrace change in that respect and, and to find the newness as something to embrace, uh, and, and bring it into the old.
You know, sometimes people hold on to this, the way we've always done it. And it's like, it's again, it goes back to the, if you're not growing, you're dying kind of thing. You can find yourself obsolete in another year or two or five because you weren't changing with the times. You weren't seeing what the trends were, uh, and seeing if they aligned with the principles that run your, your job field or your industry.
Absolutely one and bringing that up about you having grown up as an army brat reminds me to also mention that like leaving well as a concept is something that is often used in military families in missionary families in expat families, because it is exactly that you have to say goodbye properly, either to the friends who are leaving or the place that you're leaving.
The posting in order to be that much better in the new place. So I'm glad you brought that up. You have, you have a tent framework. Um, and I'm wondering if you would talk a little bit about that to the person listening who might be navigating or complicate contemplating their role in the workplace as a leader and how that might be helpful for them.
I'm a huge fan of the servant leadership. Uh, and people think it's for my Christian walk, but the reality is, no, I learned this in the army, uh, because I wasn't that great of a servant leader when I was in basic training, you know, I was assigned as the platoon sergeant for my class twice. I got fired twice.
And then when I went on to my medic training, I, I was trying to lay low and they found me and they said, we want you to be the class sergeant. So your job is to make sure people come to class, they're accounted for, and ultimately we're going to look to you to inspire them and help them. Graduate. And I was like, I think I was the only person who had a class where a hundred percent of us passed.
And we were all at the 80 percent or higher bracket. Not even in that 70 percent range to get there though. I earned the nickname from the cadre, the instructors as the warden. And I wore it like a badge of honor. I'm like, yeah, I'm a hard, you know, bleep leader until we got to the field exercise and the last week.
And it turns out people wanted to fight me in the wood line from my own platoon, my own, my own class. And I think I got challenged like three different fights, maybe four. And of course I said yes to all of them because it can't look weak. And fortunately there was an instructor or a drill sergeant who happened to be walking by when they heard this going down, I guess when you're two people shouting at each other.
Out in the middle of nowhere, you're going to be heard. So a drill sergeant or an instructor would pop up out of nowhere, split us up before we even walked off to the wood line. And, uh, they would discipline the other guy for challenging me in the first place, remind them, Hey, this can get you not just kicked out of the army, but before we send you out of the army, we'll send you to a place called.
Fort Leavenworth, which is a military prison. So do you want that? And they're like, no, Sergeant. And they're like, all right. So don't ever do that again with your own teammates. And then they would turn to me and was like, Hey, be nicer to people. You know, go get a coffee, take a breath of fresh air. Uh, go party with your friends on the weekend for a change, you know, those kinds of things.
And finally, somebody pulled me aside and said, Hey, I understand you're called the warden, he was from another platoon. He's like, I understand they call you the warden. Like, yes, they do, Sergeant. Do you like that nickname? I think so. Well, it's, it's not said as a compliment, just so you know. I'm like, Oh, and so there was a good 20 minute conversation about, uh, respect for people as people like this is the military.
But how we lead each other is nothing like what we see in the movies. We don't just yell orders and people say, Yes, Sergeant, No, Sergeant, or Yes, Sir, No, Sir. To get that kind of loyalty and obedience, you gotta treat them like people. You gotta genuinely lead them as a human. Cause you're a human leading other humans and you got to respect their dignity.
You got to respect their self worth, their worth. And remember that I was like, yes. And then two years later, I'm a Sergeant. They're sending me off to primary leadership development course, and they're reinforcing those ideas. And for the first two years, I'm seeing it at play things like whenever we went to the dining hall with my, my boss, my boss made sure everybody else in the squad went to chow first, like he didn't even like come with us.
everybody in the squad was getting fed somewhere. And then he would go to go to chow. You can tell which officers were prior enlisted as well, before they became officers, because they would do the same thing. Whereas officers usually are like, well, I'm going to lunch, but I'm like, just kind of forget to do that.
So. It was that, it was a Lieutenant in Kosovo who shared with me, uh, Lieutenant Perkins, uh, that you'd never mess with the three Ms with your soldiers, their meals, their money, or their mail. You do those three things, you'll treat them as humans, they'll feel connected and cared for, and they'll do whatever it takes to get the mission done for you.
I was like, oh, wow, cool. And then it turns out all through my civilian career, taking that approach, Has always paid off. How do I get servant leadership to be memorable? And then that's when tent came up, uh, that couple of things, tents are mobile. So you set them up where you need them for a leader. You go to where your people are.
You meet them where they are in their career, in their development, in their needs. Uh, tents are adaptable. You can change. The structure of a tent to combat the environment outside and leaders the same way, you know, especially now in a post pandemic world, leaders have to adapt because. The work environment has truly shifted.
Uh, expectations about the work environment and workspace have changed. People want that work life balance and leaders have to find out how to serve the needs of the organization and the customer by also, and probably for first and foremost, serving the needs of their people. So adaptability. And then the third thing about a tent is that once you've got it set up, It provides a safe environment on the inside for the people that are in there and a leader does the same thing.
If a leader sets up the environment just right, puts those tent stakes in the ground first, then they create a work environment where people want to stay. They want to thrive. They want to help each other thrive. And then the offshoot of that or the byproduct is the customers are happy. It's a safe space and the organization as a whole is thriving.
And I learned in the Army, the fastest way to set up a tent. It's you stake out the corners first. So the tent framework are those four stakes in the ground. The first letter T for trust building. First and foremost, you got to drive in trust. You got to build trust, earn trust, and then keep that trust. So doing things that'll always maintain that trust.
The second thing, empowering. You could be a martyr and it's a sucky way to lead because that means you're doing everybody's job. You can never hire anybody good enough. And then people pick up on that and say, well, my leader doesn't care and doesn't provide me any growth opportunities. I'm going to go somewhere where.
They will, uh, so not empowering people is a great way to lose people. Empowering people, sharing your authority with others who report to you is a great way to develop them, help them grow and help them see a future either as a leader or in the organization. So you build loyalty that way. And it's for navigating, you know, people want to see growth opportunities in their career, uh, Gallup in their top five, uh, reasons why people left their jobs in 2022, three of the five had to do with not seeing opportunities for growth or not being leveraged.
Actually, I'm sorry, two out of the five, uh, so not seeing growth opportunities and not being utilized in the skills they did have to help propel their career or the organization navigating for success helps you do just that. And it helps you show that you care because now you're asking questions like, what do you want to do in five years?
How does that fit into where we are now? Uh, what kind of tasks do you think would make best use of your skills? And your knowledge set, what kind of things do you want to learn in the next year, next six months, those kinds of questions help people navigate for success in their own career. And then you just find ways to tie it in with your own goals as a leader and as an organization.
And then the last one is thriving together. And that's driven by the need for recognition. People are six times more likely to stick around if they regularly receive positive recognition for the work they are doing. And it's got to be specific recognition that ties into the greater good. Like, how did your task or your project or your work on a daily basis lead to this metric here or to this strategic outcome?
And then recognize them in the way they want to be recognized. Uh, a friend of mine would give out sporting event tickets all the time because he loves going to sporting events. Uh, but he worked in a software company. So he'd find those tickets in the trash. And he's like, those were box seats that somebody gave me.
Why would you throw those away? Like they feed you for free in that thing. And so he asked his team, why are you guys throwing away the tickets? They're like, we don't like sports. He's like, really? Yeah. We're in software. What do you think we did growing up? We didn't play sports, we played video games. And he's like, what do you guys like?
Man, a gift card to GameStop would be awesome. A gift card to Xbox Live? Awesome. And he's like, really? Like, that's way cheaper than what I gave you. Yeah, and then you save money. Do it. So he started giving out gift cards to that. And then one guy was such an introvert, he's like, I die inside my skin whenever you publicly recognize me in front of others.
Please don't do that. Shake my hand in a dark room somewhere. Give me a gift card to GameStop and I'll be happy. And don't fire me or lay me off. He's like, really? Yeah. And so people like to be recognized in different ways. There's six more. There's six times more likely to stick around if they are regularly recognized.
And on the flip side of that, um. Zipia pulled some information from Gallup. I haven't found it. So I just say Zipia said so. And I'll just keep challenging them on this. And that is 29 percent of employees in the U S say that they haven't received recognition from their leader in over a year. And it's like, oof.
So when you look at that decline in engagement, uh, when you look at the, the exodus that happened in 2021 and 2022, you know, how much did recognition play a part in that? And so that's the 10 framework, you know, trust building, empowering, navigating for success, and then thriving together. You put those four stakes in the ground.
It's not one. And then the next, and then the next you're doing all four simultaneously. And in the, you just deepen the driving into that stake over time. And, uh. Yeah, stay, stay mobile, stay adaptable and create that safe space for your team to thrive. I love that so much. It is. It's also I just think about the recognition and the motivators and finding out what that is for your teams is perhaps the most important thing you can do, especially as people come in and out of a team.
It's really powerful. So thanks for sharing your framework. As we wrap up, I'm curious to know what leaving well means to you. I would say, as best you can, leave that door open for a return. And, you know, I share that my last You know, role that I left, it was a toxic environment. Uh, it wasn't on the greatest of terms that I put in my resignation.
However, I wanted the organization as a whole. I still love the work they do. I still love the heritage and the legacy they've been building. They, and it's great to cheer them on as they continue to do that. So I didn't want to do anything that would tear all that apart. So for me, leaving, well. Was do everything I could to keep that door open, uh, while also still being true to my values and so on.
And, uh, so, I mean, if you got to take a stand, you take your stand, but don't do it in a, I'm going to blow the whole thing up kind of way where all the work we've done is no longer valid, uh, do it in a way that you preserve the work that you've done. You preserved as many of the relationships as you could, and you've honored the organization on the way out the door.
And, uh, I think that's the best way to leave well while also still being true to yourself. You got to be true to yourself and, and recognize that you are leaving for the right reasons. Uh, and it's just time to, to move on. Jerry, thank you so much. This has been jam packed with things that I'm hoping as you listen to this, you are taking away at least one or two things that you can implement in your own life or in your own workplace.
Jerry, thank you. Thank you, Naomi. To learn more about Leaving Well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace, visit NaomiHattaway.com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system.
We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide, to shift culture, and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.