38: Africa Brooke on Values and The Third Perspective
Africa Brooke is a Zimbabwean-born consultant, coach, speaker, and podcaster, recognized for her work in overcoming self-sabotage and self-censorship. As the founder and CEO of Africa Brooke International, she provides consulting, coaching, and support to a global audience.
She hosts two personal development podcasts, “Beyond the Self” and “Unthinkable Thoughts,” and is a frequent guest on TV shows, podcasts, and radio broadcasts. Her insights have been featured in publications like The Guardian, and she has delivered keynotes at prestigious venues, including Cambridge University.
Resources and articles mentioned in this episode:
Get your copy of The Third Perspective at Amazon or Bookshop.
Read my article on Values and Breathing Space
To learn more about Leaving Well, visit https://www.naomihattaway.com/
To support the production of this podcast, peruse my Leaving Well Bookshop or buy me a coffee.
This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
Transcript:
So I think on an internal mindset, embodied level, you need to have that willingness to disrupt and completely compassionately disrupt the idea that people have off you.
This is leaving well, where we unearth and explore the reality of leaving a job. Role, project, or title with intention and purpose and when possible joy. I'm Naomi Hattaway, your host season one of this podcast features guests, experiences, and lessons learned about necessary endings in the workplace. And season two features solo episodes, sharing my best practices and leaving well framework expect to be inspired, challenged, and reminded that you too can embed and embody the art and practice of leaving well, as you seek to leave your imprint in this world.
Africa Brooke is a Zimbabwean born consultant, coach, speaker, and podcaster recognized for her work in overcoming self sabotage and self censorship. As the founder and CEO of Africa Brooke International, she provides consulting, coaching, and support to a global audience. She hosts two personal development podcasts, one titled Beyond the Self and another titled Unthinkable Thoughts, and is a frequent guest on TV shows, movies, Podcasts and radio broadcasts.
Africa's insights have been featured in publications like the guardian, and she has delivered keynotes at prestigious venues, including Cambridge university. Africa. I'm really excited to have you on to talk about some really important things. And one of the topics that I'd love to dive into is the topic of values.
And I actually run my clients. Often through a values exploration exercise, which they always roll their eyes at me. And at the beginning of that, I wanted to let you know that I have a quote of yours. And this quote from you that I use with my clients is this one. Values are the evidence of our foundation and they show the foundation stones of your identity.
Yes. So good. Thank you for letting me know that you use that because it's something that it's something that I fundamentally believe. And it's something that I didn't even think I would see as important because I, the rolling your eyes at the word values thing is something that I absolutely get and understand.
I think it's something that we hear and it feels just like corporate language. If it's like, It's a lot of words and it feels like jargon that people use just as cushioning to show that they are good people doing ethical good business or whatever it is. But the more that I really tune into what it means for me to be operating in integrity, which of course builds over into my work.
I realized that knowing your values is a non negotiable. So it truly is. It's the stones, the anchor of which everything else is built on. So thank you for sharing that with me. Yeah. Thank you. I would love if we, as we start, if you could read a segment from your new book, Values runs through it as a current, but there's a certain segment that I'd love for us to kick off.
Absolutely. Values will be the anchor when external pressures might otherwise sway you. You will do more than simply have them. You will be living them and making sure they trickle into every area of your communication and your life. Every conversation, even the ones with yourself, every post, every call, you'll see how this guiding system impacts how you connect with people, how you make decisions, and how you react to what happens around you.
Every post, every conversation. I love that so much. And it's one of the things that I love about what we both feel and value is that The value should be operationalized and lived out in our everyday. And I would love if you would talk a little bit about the biggest risks to our own self awareness and self efficacy if we don't live according to our values.
To me, and I, this is a question that I've been asked a lot and I've really had to dial into it to see what I truly believe around this. And it's something that I don't know people would really connect to in terms of just instinctively around values. But to me, It inhibits you from being intimate with yourself, other people, and the world around you.
So I think when you don't know what your values are, something else that I always say is that you will always be at the mercy of the external world. When you have no idea what it is you stand for, what you're willing to go against the grain for, what you're willing to be misunderstood for. I truly believe that you, you are subject to change, right?
At any given moment, any opinion, that feels stronger than yours. You come across someone who you think is more knowledgeable, maybe someone that intimidates you a little bit, you're more likely to adopt their way of thinking, their way of speaking, their way of behaving, because you have no idea what your internal anchor is.
And I think there's something anti intimacy about that, because how can I build intimacy with myself and you and my colleagues, etc. If I don't know what be in conflict with, you know, if I don't know what I'm willing to say, actually, I don't stand for that. This is what I stand for. And let's see where we both stand on this or what we agree with.
So I think it inhibits you again from just being intimate with the world. And to me, that's a very big thing to risk because I think intimacy informs everything else. And I'm curious to know what you think about that. Well, it's interesting because as soon as you said the intimacy, I was thinking that the listener Might be kind of having a reaction to even the connection of intimacy in the workplace, because that's something that we're not, I don't think we are comfortable with.
And we definitely, I don't think lean into wanting more of that. You know, everything is very, um, almost standoffish that we are going to perform the job duties and then we leave, but that's where we spend the most. Of our time, especially thinking about in an office. And I also think about the person listening who might not have decision making power, or may not feel that they have decision making power.
And so what what came to mind was the opportunity for anyone who's listening, regardless of where you sit on the hierarchy in your workplace, to be able to choose what you stand for and what you. will not, uh, let fall by the wayside based on your values. Yeah. And I'm always, I'm always curious actually, because I do work with a lot of teams, C suite executives and different individuals within corporations, um, and even brands, whatever it might be.
And I, I always wonder when you speak to individuals or even you, when you work with them, what are some of the things that They think they value, but actually, when you look deeper into it, they actually, they don't necessarily value. Yeah. Well, and I think where what comes instantly to mind is how a lot of organizations will have their values on the wall, you know, it could be efficiency, honesty, and.
I don't know what would be enough. What would be another common one? Transparency. Transparency. Yes. Yes. And I think that a lot of times when I talk with individuals, they point to the wall and they say, well, those are, those are how we operate. But when I ask how they are actually living those out with the people that they serve, that's the friction comes in.
They're like, oh, well, we don't actually, you know, they kind of hem and haw because values aren't actually trickling down to the communities. Or the mission, actually, and so I think that when I work with individuals with their values, we often talk about the small ways that they can show them in public or show them at work, and they're huge light bulb moments when I think about, like, kindness, for example, if kindness is someone's value, one of the ways I do kindness as a value that's operationalized is 20 minute meetings.
with an agenda always. And people say, well, that's, I mean, that's kind of just common sense. That's not necessarily kindness. But I think when we verbalize and say, the reason I'm doing this 20 minute meeting request is so that I can be kind to myself in my day. And so I can be kind to you. So you have time for a bio break or something between your next meeting.
And then that makes people start to realize like, Oh, it also doesn't have to be hard. The idea of, of values that we are living out. It doesn't have to be hard all the time. I think that's Maybe a misnomer that we, that it has to be a challenge. Absolutely. Yeah, that, that's something that I see quite often.
And, you know, even, even in the third perspective, my book, I write that there is a difference between embodied values. So the way that you're actually operating in the world. So if you were to look at the results in your life, You'll, you'll be shown what your embodied values actually are. Look at how you're experiencing your workplace.
Look at the relationship that you have with your colleagues. Look at where maybe you center yourself and find it difficult to say certain things. You'll, you'll, you'll be shown, right, whether certain things are embodied. And then we have what I think of as our desired values, who we wish we were, how we wish we operated in the workplace, how courageous we wish we could be in meetings, right?
So that's where those values on the wall, transparency and honesty and integrity and inclusion, right? We, we think of them as embodied. But do the results that we're actually seeing in our internal and external environment, are they as embodied as we think? So I find it really cool when people have this kind of eye rolling thing in the beginning.
But then when I introduced the idea, and I wonder how you explored this similar thing, when I introduced the idea of embodied versus desired, then people are like, Ooh, okay, that that's a little bit interesting. I have this idea of myself. But what is the reality of how I'm actually operating? So I find that to be a very interesting little thought exercise, right?
Well, and accountability comes into play because a lot of times when I'm doing this work, it's with a team in the same room. And so we're talking about their personal values and there's a little bit of discomfort too, because as they're talking about their specific values, whether embodied or desired, they're knowing that their colleagues are also listening.
And they can check them and we kind of flip it and say, you know, instead of this being a shame moment, have this be an opportunity where you can hold each other accountable in the work that you do. Um, and then I think there's also a beautiful way to, you know, if there's an organization, um, set of values that impacts, I work mostly with non for profit.
So if. The values really do get embodied in a way that helped the client. How can the team members use their skill sets, their values, their belief systems, all of those things to reach and accomplish the good. And that's again, where accountability can come in, I think. Yes. Yeah, that's beautiful. I would love Africa for you to speak to the listener who is facing maybe a rocky transition in their workplace.
Maybe they're the one exiting for an opportunity, or maybe they're tasked to hold everything together as someone else is leaving. I also think that there's probably maybe a board member listening, um, over an organization who has an upcoming leadership transition. The question is how can they use their own personal values to support themselves through.
The reality of chaos and criticism and even possibly public back backlash, especially with executive transitions. A lot of times it's very public. And so I just be curious what you'd say to that listener who's has that. I love that. And I, um, can you give me a little bit more, even Any examples of what this tends to look like, what some, what some of that either internal or external resistance can look like in that transitionary period, because a lot of doors are opening.
And yes, so I'm thinking of a couple of recent clients who are very public in their leadership. They are in the midst of a transition and it's known the public knows that they're leaving. Every decision is under scrutiny. Every choice is made. That they make ends up either in the news or in someone's mouth for a conversation piece.
And I find a lot of people will shy away from the courageous decisions because they know that the backlash is coming. So, does that help as maybe an example? Absolutely. Absolutely. It helps because and I'll, I'll, I'll give the specific answer that comes up, but I'll say why it helps because when I work with people even outside of the corporate world, so it can be an artist, for example, because I work with a lot of people that are in the public eye.
It can be an artist that has been in the shadows working away at a different type of music for a while, but they have an audience, even a team that expects them to create in the same way that they've been creating for the past five years. So they have big decisions to make about that transition.
They're still going to be in the same space, same industry. But it's an identity thing. There's an identity thing here. They have to reveal a new identity and a new them and sort of disrupt the version of them that people have always known. So it's kind of, it's, it reminded me of that instantly, which is why I wanted kind of even a specific example.
Because it's that thing. I talk about the thing that you and I Naomi have spoken about before. There needs to be a willingness to disrupt the idea that people have off you. And that sounds, that's a, that's actually a very brave and courageous thing to do as you say it rounds, right? It sounds pretty good.
However, it comes with a lot of discomfort that you have to hold because it's not just about you. They, they're other people. It can be a team of five people, 50 people, a hundred people expecting you. To make a certain type of decision, expecting you to maybe justify why you're going through this transition.
So I think on an internal mindset, embodied level, you need to have that willingness to disrupt and completely, compassionately disrupt the idea that people have of you. And that requires holding some discomfort and trusting your decision making process. So it's almost like it comes back to that self trust piece where you have to trust yourself enough to say, this is the decision that I'm making.
This transition is happening regardless. You are going to need to get used to the new way of doing things. It's a, it's a difficult thing to hold because it requires you to actually really stand up straight in who you are as a person. And that can be difficult when there's so much external noise, especially in the corporate world, I would say.
Yeah. Right. Well, and I, I so agree with you. And I think that there's this space when you're talking about the discomfort that comes from wholly and completely Disrupting that comes, that comes at a cost personally. But I think the big question is what's the cost if you don't. Yes. Yes. What's the cost if you don't.
And I think a lot of times with leadership, you know, leadership is, can be defined by many different people, many different ways, but when I work with primarily women or people who really lean into a feminine version or brand of leadership, I'll say it that way, they're really concerned about how people are going to think.
And they're really concerned about how people will view them. I think they're less concerned about how their next opportunity will come. And it's more in the moment. Yes. Yes. Why, why do you think that is? Because I tend to work with a lot of women leaders as well. What sort of the pattern you see, even the pattern in thinking or the, the fear pattern?
Yeah, I, you know, it's, that's an interesting question. I think that it comes from a lot of times having maybe over given to the work. You talked about identity being the thing that that often is the crux of this disruption and needing to say what you need to say and living into your two values. And I think that we over identify with our work so much more as women.
I think that men potentially. There are very connected to the idea of work, but I think women are more connected to maybe the mission or the community that they're serving or what have you. I also work with a lot of founders. And so they're very, very, very tied to the identity of what they've built. And I think that there's some fear also, and what's going to happen if this crumbles, what happens if it ends, what happened if what happens, my decision to leave is what breaks.
This thing. And I think about that in relationships. Also, what happens if I make the right decision for me? And it has an adverse reaction to the person that I'm leaving. Absolutely. And it, it, it makes me think of the pattern that I tend to uncover a lot of the time. And sometimes it's so well hidden because it's in individuals who outwardly they appear Very confident in their decision.
They're very courageous, very brave people. That's why they are in senior positions, leadership positions, founders, whatever the wildly title is. But the, the sort of underlying thing, especially for women is they're afraid that they will disappoint someone. Maybe it's afraid that they're disappointing the investors, afraid that they're disappointing the board, afraid that they're disappointing the team that they started out with.
There's always this fear of disappointing someone, because I think. Even just historically women have been made to think that other people's needs come first, you know, that you Thinking of yourself and prioritizing your needs is somewhat selfish. It's not the right thing to do morally. And that shines in business.
We see it in business all the time. Sometimes it's just well hidden, but it's absolutely there. That, so that's something that I see all the time. It's the fear of disappointing. I'm going to disappoint people in this decision. I'll make it anyway. It's what I need to do. I understand it intellectually, but the sort of, uh, the fear of The running story internally is that, um, I might be disappointing people.
So that's where that willingness to be misunderstood piece comes right back, right? Being able to see that and just take on being the role of the observer to not buy into it so much. Ah, I mean, the stories, the stories that we create and run with, you know. I also think what comes up for me a little bit, uh, in thinking about the women that I work with and for myself, if I'm being honest is the fear of losing relevancy.
And I think about if we've if we've identified ourselves as Can to the work, then if the work is changing, or if we're making a decision that disrupts our relationship to that work, where's our relevancy then, but I often think about when you talk about desired values, what comes to mind is the people that I respect and admire and what values they're living out and embodying all of them are willing to disrupt their own relevancy for the good of whatever they're here for.
even if it means that their reputation shifts or changes or falls or goes dormant. Um, and that feels really powerful too. I love that because that speaks to my top value. And I have a feeling that it might be one of yours too. It's integrity, right? Am I willing to be whole regardless of the environment that I'm in, regardless of what it is presented to me?
Am I willing to make the decision that is in true alignment with what it is that I stand for? And I think when you take that approach, being relevant might be sort of like a superficial concern because we're human and we don't want to be left behind and we want to make sure that. You know, that the community, the tribe still thinks we're important.
Sure, but I think it, it gets to stay as just as this superficial thing that I just noticed, but you kind of swat it away like a fly or you can choose to sort of embody it. Yeah. So I think it, it then becomes a conversation of, Or where am I being a little bit out of integrity with myself? Because if, if being relevant is a very big or consuming concern for you, it doesn't make you a bad person.
It doesn't make you morally wrong. It's actually very normal. However, it can mean that you're not really fully stepping into, into embodying the value of integrity in the way that you would want to. So it's probably more so in the desired category. So you need to start working at bringing it over into the embodied, right?
I love that. And that also makes me think of a second question for you. How do you feel about legacy when it comes to our work? Because I'm hearing you say that about relevancy, and it makes me think about, especially founders, women who are, have birthed something into this world and wanting it to be part of their legacy.
And sometimes I think legacy can be harmful. So I'm curious what you think. Oh, I love this. Cause I was just having a conversation about legacy with someone. Can I stop by asking? First of all, how do you define legacy? Because that change, that changes everything. Yes. Where we can go, right? I think for this conversation, I think I would define it as the thing that you actively work towards in order to leave something behind.
That's the definition that I'm working with, too. So is the question, do I think legacy can be harmful? Or, uh, what are my thoughts of legacy in general? The idea of leaving a legacy. I think your general thought's about leaving a legacy. Because, and the reason why I think it might be harmful is if we're only working towards the future of what our legacy is, we're not staying present in the today.
And so I'm just curious where your thoughts of embodying values and all of those things where that kind of. Plays with legacy. Yeah, I love that. I think, and again, this was a very recent conversation. So I think this is so fresh within me. I look at it sort of in two ways. I think the idea of legacy is very beautiful.
Again, it's one of those things, even when you say it, right, I want to leave a legacy. There's something so kind of majestic about this idea that I am creating something or doing something that's going to leave a mark in the world. and live way beyond my own timeline, you know, but I always, I'm always curious about the motivations of that because I think it can be self serving.
Who is it for? Yes. Right. I think it can be self serving and that doesn't necessarily mean that there's something wrong or harmful about that, but I guess I'm always curious about the, who is it for? Who is this sort of legacy for? Is it for you to feel? Is it an egoic stroke? Is it just sort of stroking your own ego?
Or is it actually because you're very clear on the thing that you're creating, the ideas that you're putting out into the world are going to impact and transform the lives of people. So this actually has nothing to do with you. You're simply a vehicle for, for making an actual tangible change. So I don't know that I have a neat conclusion, but it's something that I think about often because I, I do think I'm doing legacy work and I think you are too.
And it's not actually just a thought. There's actually a track record and evidence for it, that it's impacting. It's not just impacting our lives and allowing for us to live well. It's allowing for other people to have a understanding of self and it has a ripple effect. So I think there's something to me, even as I speak it out loud, there's something beautiful about doing the work that you need to do And then the legacy is formed by itself.
And then you become aware that, Oh my goodness, I'm creating a legacy and I get to be even more intentional instead of where I think it can be very self serving. It's to sort of, how do I wear this? And maybe you can help me out. It's to sort of. I don't know. I think sometimes there can be a self centered quality to it without any sort of track record that whatever the thing is you're creating is actually impacting other people beyond you, right?
And I also think that the self serving piece comes in because if we're, if we are not focused on the work that we have in front of us today, like you said, you're doing latest work. Then we're actually not going to be pushed into our accountability, into our integrity, into the third perspective, right? I love that you've articulated it in a way that I don't think I've really heard in that actually legacy work is more about the now.
What are you doing right now in your everyday, right? What are those embodied values that you're actually living out in the world? And then it's almost a thing where I think there's something about people telling you that you're, you're doing legacy work, right? Instead of this thing of you forcing the idea of, I am doing legacy work onto other, with no proof.
Right? Yes. And there's a, there's a quote that Jaya John, um, the incredible Jaya says, I mean, Oh, He, he talks a lot about being a living ancestor and I like that reframe instead of talking about legacy. It's that we are living ancestors. And so every decision, every creativity that we bring into our lives, every piece of body of work that we focus on is part of the ancestor ship that we're leaving.
Um, and so that even feels really relevant, um, to think about as a, an opposite, an opposite maybe, or maybe it runs side by side with legacy, but I think you're right around that. legacy work is in the today choices that we're making. Oh my gosh, yes. You know, the moment that you said living ancestors, I, I just got goosebumps all over my body.
That feels fundamentally more accurate, more true. Um, and it feels like it doesn't hone in on the self so much. It's not about, because there's again, or maybe it's just sort of semantics or how you look at it. But, um, I'm so fascinated with language and the way that we use it and I'm, I'm more so now paying attention to language that is very self involved and not about the collective because I think we have a big issue even in the workplace with just hyper individualism but the pretense of community you know when they say oh we're a family here it's like yeah we're not.
Todd. Okay. We're not a family and you know, well, not a family. There's like a pretense, but there's hyper individualism, you know? So I'm really trying to look at the way in which I use language. And is there a better way to start using language that is truly inclusive? That when we're talking about legacy, it's not, I am creating a legacy.
It's actually exactly, as you said, Naomi, the Work you're doing in the world and how you live and what you embody. It says, it says legacy in and of itself and you work and you, you, you do what it is that you need to do. So the world can tell you how they're experiencing you. So the idea of being a living ancestor, to me, it sounds more like a devotion and a commitment.
And like, I, I just, I love that. I really, really like that. Yeah, and it also then it kind of segues into another question that I have, um, talking about reputation and how that connects to responsibility. There's a portion of your book. It's on page 181. And as you're listening to this, you need to go either pre order or order depending on when you were hearing this podcast, but you talk about, um, as always, Being the architects of our own image.
And so I'm curious about the leader who is listening because a lot of folks have left and feel that their reputation has been damaged. They've left the workplace. They've left a project. How. If they have that deep fear of a damaged reputation as a result of leaving, or if they're not leaving because they have a fear about it, mutation, I would love to for you to just to give some encouragement, maybe not advice necessarily, but just your thoughts on what happens when our reputations are damaged and how we can truly be the architects of our own image.
Yeah, I love that a lot and something that I would invite. You to do even for the listener who hasn't directly experienced this right now. Some might have some might have experienced it on a small scale, maybe internally, just sort of wondering if exactly as you said, if the reputation would be damaged, etc.
I would immediately throw out that language of. reputation being damaged because it's a very absolutist way of thinking because is that fact or fiction? Do you have proof that it's real or not real, right? Which is why I, in this case, I do bring it back to the self. I think it's much more important to cultivate a robust self reputation because your external reputation can change At any moment, I promise you, you could be in good standing with your company for 20 years and one decision, one thing goes awry and everything can change, right?
And some things are more resolvable than we think. It can take a little bit of time to make amends and to Build those bridges once again to transform the nature of certain relationships, but your self reputation gets to stay consistent, which is why that thing we were saying of understanding your values, knowing what it is that you stand for within yourself.
And being willing to be misunderstood, being okay with getting things wrong. And we're not talking about extremes here. I think we can all use common sense. Right. But I also think sometimes when we make transitions or make what we think are bad decisions, we over inflate the consequences of it or the impact of it.
And we make ourselves think that we're stuck in this timeline and this season forever, full stop. And we actually start to lead with the idea that. Oh, I've damaged my reputation. So I couldn't go back there of X, Y, Z, you know, we, we kind of create the story, a lot of what we're talking about is what are the stories that I have created that are not actually useful?
What are the stories that I have created around what it means to transition and to go to an, what are the stories that I've created around, you know, leaving when there was a big project that was about to happen? What are the stories that I've created? But I think you can, you can really be grounded by having a strong self reputation.
We're like, you know what? This is actually not the end. This is the end of this particular chapter. And maybe things need a little bit of space here, but there's always a way to return. And if there's not, I can create something elsewhere. I can get lessons from here. And now I know what to do differently over there.
And when you have a strong self reputation, what I think about me is what matters most. Yeah. That allows you to move in a very fluid way, especially in moments where those mind gremlins are trying to convince you that your reputation is damaged full stop, which I don't think is true for most people. It just isn't.
It isn't. I love that you said that because I think that it makes, it makes the argument and I think it's a true argument that Ourself, the mind gremlins of ourselves are stronger, um, as a, a negative than any other person in the other human. Um, yeah. And I also, I use a lot of, um, the concept of riverbanks in my work and riverbanks being the pillars and the foundations or the values.
And once those are set, what happens in the middle can be very fluid. It can shift and change. The water can go. What happens though, when you let it seep, um, it's really hard to put the water back in. Um, and I, I thought of that a lot when you were talking about the ability to stand firm in our convictions and in our values, and then kind of let the rest of it happen as it will.
Absolutely. Oh, I, I really love that. And I think, I wonder what you think about this, but there's also something to be said about not always expecting things to be comfortable and to end well all the time. I think we, we kind of, in so many ways, whether it's in romantic relationships, professional relationships, even relationships with our children or whatever it might be.
I think sometimes as human beings, we have this idea that things should always just end in this sort of complete way, that every loop should be closed. And if it's not closed in exactly the right way, then That means it's all wrong from here, you know, and that's not always true. Sometimes things come back and you revisit and you find your way back to each other.
Things make sense a year later, you're able to look at it in retrospect, and you're able to go back and say, actually, I want to acknowledge the way things ended here. I think things are more malleable than we, than we think, you know, and I think that's worth remembering. I think it is too. I also, I would love to hear just a little bit about your personal relationship to change and transition.
That's a good one. There have been many points in my life where I've been forced into change and transition and I didn't necessarily choose it, you know. I would say one of the biggest things, your listeners might or might not be familiar with this, but my story and my work, I've been led to it because of needing to get sober nearly a decade ago, nine years ago now.
When I was just in this cycle of self destruction and relapsing from alcohol specifically was my vice. I was just constantly self sabotaging and I didn't really understand why. Any time that I was close to actually getting well, I would pull the plug on myself. It was almost like this thing of, I'm never going to be able to sustain this anyway, so let me just get in there first and prove that belief to actually be true.
But, Each time that I would try and get sober, I was being forced into a state of change because I did need to get well. But I was rejecting it. I wasn't surrendering to the need for change. So that's where I started to kind of notice my resistance to transitions, my resistance to Even to getting well, which sounds so bizarre when you say it, but I think this is so applicable to a lot of things.
Where am I resisting the very thing that I need? Because familiarity, even if it's not working for me, even if it's a job that I absolutely detest, they don't even pay me well. I can't, I don't feel like I can even speak up. But I've been here for seven years. I know it. Well, I know it. Well, I know when I start.
I know when I finish. I know when my holidays are. I know what to expect. I know the characters that I'm around. It's miserable, but it's familiar. That was my cycle, but with addiction. So I, I would say in that period from 14 years old to 24, I was sort of in this cycle and then I got sober when I was 24 and then I was led to the work that I do now in wanting to understand human behavior and sort of the science of change, why we resist change, even when it's good for us, right?
So my relationship with change and transition, I would say for the first two decades of my life, change always felt like something that was forced onto me. It never felt like a choice, but through the lens of sobriety, I really got to embrace it and to realize that my human existence, is a reflection of the seasons.
I get to be winter, and then I get to be spring, and then I get to be summer, and then I get to be autumn. I get to be so many iterations and versions of myself, even when it's so uncomfortable. And because I've learned to collect lessons from every single transition, I don't force myself to do it in the moment in time, which I think could be useful for the listener.
sometimes we're made to, we're sort of forced and shamed into finding lessons as we're going through something. Don't you hate that? It's the worst. It's the worst. Yeah, we do it to each other and to ourselves all the time. All the time. But I'm really realizing that I'm being invited to feel and to honor and to see the reality of what is as I'm in this moment of change and transition.
And I truly believe that that decade of Feeling that I didn't have any choice really sort of trained me to understand that. So I was able to do that even in the workplace when I realized that actually, how did I experience this when I was in the corporate world? Cause that's when I experienced a lot of changes too.
So I worked in advertising for a while, for maybe four years. And in the beginning, because I didn't go to university and I felt very underqualified. I was with people that had been trained, but quickly I picked up everything that I needed to do. And I, I started to feel like I wasn't getting to use the best of me or, but at the same time, this environment was also getting the best of me, but I wasn't being stretched and challenged in the way that I needed to.
But again, there was this thing of feeling lucky. I'm lucky to be here. So I don't get to leave. I have to stay. I have to see it through until I get offered a promotion, but I was being called to change to put my all into my business and my company and the work that I do now. And that was a big confronting invitation of change and transition.
But I listened and I honored it because again, I'd had that training from sobriety to be like, you might be very uncomfortable now and it might not make sense, but this is what you need to have that activation for everything else that follows. So I've, I've really just had to change my relationship with transition and to understand that I don't have to force myself to collect the lessons and the benefits in real time.
I actually need to feel that discomfort for as long as I need to feel it. Yeah. and be proactive while I'm feeling it. So yeah, now it feels like a choice. It feels like a choice, even when it's sort of thrust upon me in a way that surprises me and maybe even shakes my nervous system. I always have to remember and remind myself that actually I have a choice in terms of how I engage with the change, you know, we decide.
Yeah. Can I ask what, what your relationship with change and transition. Yeah. It's a good question. I think that I have, as I've gotten older, I have, um, well, I'll, I'll start by saying that when I was younger, I always thought that they were the same thing. I thought that change and transition went together and that it was just kind of one big mess that I, um, I thought handled really well.
We've moved a lot. And so, you know, I've taken a lot of the lessons that I've ended up learning about change and transition from the act of coming to a place, leaving a place, coming to a place, leaving a place. And as I've gotten older and realized that there, I think two completely different things that change is what happens to us in transition is the process that we go through change or in the middle of change.
I think that my relationship to change is that I welcome it quite often. I thrive inside of it. Um, the transition part is where I have a lot of growing to do, and I also think that there's a lot of transition coming my way in terms of my parenting with the ages of our children and the relationship with my husband.
We've been married for 21 years, but most of that has been an active parenting. What is that transition going to look like to be? In relationship together without the core kind of tenant of parenting. And so those things are, I, I wrestle with that. Um, I don't know what my relationship is going to be like to the next bout of transition, but what's beautiful is being able to hold to my values and have those be the anchors and my foundation so that I can operate and kind of answer.
You, you asked a good question earlier, you were talking about the question, who's it for? And that is really resonant to me during this conversation of like, In the next transitions that I have coming up, who's it for, what are my decisions that I get to decide, who are those decisions for, um, and that helps, it helps it get really small, narrow and folks.
And I think it shuts out some of the external pressure that you talk a lot about in the third perspective, that was a windy answer, but I love that. I love that. Thank you for sharing that because I think it, um, Some of these things that we're talking about can feel so abstract in nature, whether it's sort of values, etc.
So I just find that when we're able to share, even in this sort of riffing out loud way, which is what I love about long form, is that you sort of get to explore it in real time and see how it rolls on the tongue and feels and you realize, Oh, I've never said it out loud in this way. way, right? So I love, and then it makes it feel more real when you sort of externalize it and hear it and you've embodied it.
And the cool thing is that it lands with someone else who's listening and then they also process. So it's, it's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Well, I think. To, to that point about not have, we don't often talk about real time examples or, um, things that people can hold on to. One good example for us is that we've been married for 21 years, but we spent most of that time living in separate houses because of my husband's career or because of mine.
And one recent experience, it was last year, but it's, it's in that vein of, we decide, my husband said like, this is really tough on us to be in separate houses. You should move to where he was, which was in Ohio. And I said, in that moment, I connected with my values and my personal tenants. And I said, I don't want to move.
Um, and I'm deciding that I'm staying. That was super hella awkward. It was a rough patch in our relationship because he was having his feelings about that. I was having my feelings about that. But in the end, my accountability to myself means that I was staying in warm weather, staying somewhere where I knew that my body would get what I needed.
And so I think there's that other thing too, of round. When we decide, we still get, it opens up more decisions. Like deciding is not also the end. It's, it just opens up the next set of doors. Oh, I love that. Deciding is not the end. That's so beautiful. Yeah, that's really powerful because it even in my body feels like it's so applicable to so many things.
And I actually think it can offer sort of like a relief in the shoulders for anyone that feels like this decision is set in stone full stop. And then it's again that it's not malleable that it's not. Yeah, that's beautiful. Beautiful. Can we get that on a tote bag or a mug? Deciding is not the end. I love that.
Let's do it.
I have one more question. I have two more questions, actually. Um, yes, I always in my podcast with, but before we end, I would love for you to talk a little bit about the maze of public perception. This was fascinating. Personal symbols. Yes. Feels like you were just saying it's hard to sometimes feel like this is tangible.
Yes. The maze of public perception is a, is a, an exercise that you guide readers through in the third perspective. And the personal symbols part was really potent. Absolutely. How did you, how did you experience it? Before I tell you sort of the behind it, how did you experience it? I experienced it in that I'm a planner and I'm an organizer.
And so a lot of times when I make a decision, when we were getting ready to move to a new place, I am the most organized mover. And so that's what came to my mind was what can I put in place or what can I know to help remind me that I'm on the right path based on the personal symbols of that maze that I'm going through.
And so it really felt like tokens. And things that are really like when I go through my house, I've set it up so that I have reminders of different things and different people. And that's what it felt like to me was, um, a compass of sorts or a guy. You just nailed it. That's exactly it. And I want to make sure.
To anyone listening to this and if you've resonated with the conversation, do get your hands on the third perspective because there's so many of these very engaging exercises and I want you to create your own roadmap. And with, with that specific one, I take myself through it quite often. Without spoiling the specifics of it, that's exactly what I wanted to do.
I want it to be a compass. I want you to actually start thinking about what the things are that you would bring and put onto yourself to make you the strongest you, to make you the you that is most in integrity, to make you the you that is so supported, and not supported by anyone else or anything outside of you, but supported by you.
Yes. The thing you're saying around choice, when we realized that, oh my goodness, I get to choose the things within me that anchor me, you know, that's exactly what I wanted it to be. So I love that you use the language of compass because Again, we are so, and I get it because it's a very human thing, we externalize so much.
We kind of craft ourselves and create these versions that are comfortable for other people's perception so that we're easier for other people to process. But we never really think, wait, am I choosing? Did I choose this? I can, I can take this off. I don't need this. We don't, I think it's so cool that we get to do that.
So that we are easier for others to process. Absolutely. When you say that, it's like, how crazy is that, that we do that? And, and when I bring it back into just really simple things. Because I, I find that people think self censorship is just about what we're saying, right? But it's even in your choice of clothing.
I can't wear this, it's too loud. I can't wear this because it's, it might be too much. I can't cut my hair in this way because it might be So we're constantly editing so other people can deal with us easier. So other people say, Huh, okay, I know where you fit in. I know, okay, that makes sense. But, but when you really think about that, again, it's that thing of when you, Hear things out loud and say it out loud.
You realize, Oh my, I don't have to, I don't have to do that. Why am I doing that? You know? So yeah, that, that perception piece ties in perfectly with the reputation piece, your self reputation. And that is directly tied with your values. What values do you already embody? Are they working for you or against you?
Fine. If it's against you, no judgment. Let's change them. Which ones are more desired? What habits, characteristics, traits do you want to cultivate so that the desire becomes more embodied? So it's, it's all, it's all a part of it, but it's about creating a perception That is actually not just, um, sort of like an illusion, like a mirage, right?
You want it to actually be true and accurate to who you are, especially in the workplace, where exactly, as you said, you're spending most of your time there. You know, so why not be the version of you that excites you, the version of you that is bold and courageous, but also compassionate, empathetic, open minded, because we think we have to be either or, right, especially if you have that thing about wanting to be taken seriously, you think, you think that you need to discard parts of yourself so that you can be taken seriously, but actually that just becomes another part of you.
Another mask. So that's a, that's a exercise that I'm excited for people to dive into. And that takes us back to that opening quote when we were talking about values and being really evidence of your foundation, the evidence of your identity. I love that. Okay. My last question for you, although I have many more that I would love to ask, what does leaving well mean to you?
Me leaving well means walking into your next chapter. without resentment, without leaving behind parts of yourself, without feeling like if things haven't ended as neatly as you would have liked, that that is the conclusion of that story full stop. But I think the resentment piece is probably the biggest one for me.
Leaving feeling full, even if you feel a little bit scared, leaving feeling hopeful and inspired, leaving knowing that you have options available to you. I think, I think that's, I think that's what I would say. That is incredibly powerful. Thank you. Thank you for all of the work that you put out into the world and the work that you do in and on yourself so that the work that you give to the rest of us is, um, relevant and potent and true.
We will have show notes with all of the details, the ways that you can be engaged with Africa's work, both of the podcasts, as well as a link to get your hands on The Third Perspective, which is life changing. It's powerful. Thank you, Africa. Thank you so much. If you've not yet taken the Workplace Transition Archetype Quiz to discover your natural relationship to change and transition, you can do that at NaomiHattaway.
com forward slash quiz. To learn more about leading well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace, visit NaomiHattaway.com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide to shift culture and to create transformation.
Until next time, I'm your host, Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.
