08: Marti Carrington, on Being Okay, Untethering, and Leaving Well
Marti Carrington has over 20 years of corporate and nonprofit human resources and operating experience and has a passion for changing organizational culture from the inside out. She believes this can be done in partnership with activism, political change, and social reconstruction. Marti serves on the Board for Nebraska AIDS Project (NAP) and Girl Scouts Spirit of Nebraska. Marti is a mother of three kids and in her limited free time, enjoys reading, running with friends, and solving the world's problems over a cocktail with her husband.
When it comes to human-centered HR professionals, Marti is at the top of my list. In this episode, we discuss her own experience with leaving well and change, and Marti shares some hard-hitting truths about how to handle those last few days at your jobs.
“[My dad] never had a sick day and worked through cancer treatments. When my dad died, people missed him, but that company did not miss him.
Seeing that, as we worked in the same place, seeing that happen was life changing for me. My perspective on the workplace changed in an instant.
That also gave me, I think, courage to lead the way I wanted to lead when I had people work for me. It shaped my leadership philosophy.””
Additional Quotes:
“Are you leaving the culture more fulfilled? Were you modeling your values in that space? I hope people feel joy when they interact with me, so I strive to leave a place more joyful.”
“Leaving well is when everything feels settled, and the waves stop crashing a bit. “Okay” is a really good thing to strive for. If a transition is happening to you or happening around you, how can we get to “it’s okay”?
Connect with Marti about her organizational health / DEI / speaking / workshop services with MC2 (Mallory Carrington)
To learn more about Leaving Well, click here.
My Bookshop.org Leaving Well library has many resources to support your workplace transition journey!
To support and contribute to the production costs of this podcast:
This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
Transcription:
The company I worked at, my dad had worked at my first sick day. I called him in tears. I was like, Oh, I have to call them. I was a grown woman. I was like in my twenties. And he was like, okay. Cause he'd never had a sick day and like worked through cancer treatments. And when my dad died. People missed him, individuals, that company did not miss him.
Seeing that, cause we worked in the same place, seeing that happen was life changing for me. My perspective on the workplace changed in an instant. So that also gave me, I think, courage to lead the way I wanted to lead when I had people work for me and shaped my leadership philosophy. And also when I decided to leave companies, again, people might miss you.
But the rest will be okay.
This is Leaving Well, where we unearth and explore the realities of leaving a job, role, project, or title with intention and purpose, and when possible, joy. I'm Naomi Hattaway, your host. I will bring you experiences and lessons learned about necessary endings in the workplace with nuanced takes from guests on topics such as grief.
Leadership and career development braided throughout will be solo episodes sharing my best practices and leaving well framework. Expect to be inspired challenged and reminded that you too can embed and embody the art and practice. Of leaving. Well, as you seek to leave your imprint in this world, my guest today is Marti Carrington.
Marti has over 20 years of corporate and nonprofit human resources and operating experience and has a passion for changing organizational culture from the inside out. She believes this can be done in partnership with activism, political change, and social reconstruction. Marti serves on the board for Nebraska AIDS Project and Girl Scouts Spirit of Nebraska.
Marti is a mother of three kids and in her limited free time enjoys reading, running with friends, and solving all of the world's problems over a cocktail with her husband. I also have to add that Marti is a dear, dear friend of mine and served as my campaign manager during my run for Omaha City Council in 2021, and it is an absolute joy to be having this conversation.
Thanks, Marti. Thank you for asking me, and I get to see your face today. I know it's going to be a good conversation. So, we've done a little bit of past discussing around the concept of leaving well and transition and change, and you have actually a whole host of things that you could talk about and bring to us during this conversation.
So, I guess I'm just going to open the floor to you and ask what you'd like to share. Today around transition, your change story in the workplace or outside of the workplace. Well, I kind of, and I think this is one that I sent to you as you were just inquiring about different changes that people you were communicating with had gone through.
And I was like, well, I got a big one that happened. And it was like this combination of work and personal, both personal, like with my family and me. So there was a point in my life When I have three children and two of them are twins, and when the twins were just three years old, I got divorced, I changed jobs at work, like the same company, but took on a different role.
And they were, like I said, three years old, which is, I find the hardest age so far of children. People say the twos, I find threes are nearly impossible. And we had, we had a lot of heart to heart, me and two three year olds. So it was like this enormous bucket of transition, like thrown upon me. All of it really of my own doing, um, but it just was all at once and I had to figure out how to navigate all of it and something that occurred to me right about that time.
So I was. 30, they were three, I was like 30 ish, I 31, I think I was 31 years old, you know, kind of coming into my own and feeling good about being 30 and everything. And all of this stuff kind of rocked my confidence. And I have a horrible, wonderful habit of not asking for help. And I'll just figure out how to do it.
And that's what I did. I just figured out how I was going to make this work. I threw myself into all of it at the same time, which meant I horribly neglected myself and my own like mental health. So I had to recalibrate that because it was like kids, number one job, me is what I had, what I had prioritized where my efforts were going to go.
And so that was probably, I would say. One of, if not the biggest change in my life and it all happened at the same time. Yeah. And it taught me a lot about myself. So it's interesting that you brought that up and said, right off the bat, you kind of laughed and said, and it was all your own doing. I think that that's some of the biggest friction points.
I guess I would say around change and transition is that we, I think we're accustomed more to dealing with the fallout. If it's something that happens to us versus something that we're a little bit more in charge of. So I'm curious if. There are examples or analogies from that point to now, where either that has served you well in future decisions and transitions and maybe a little bit of information from you on how it would have felt if it wasn't you're doing, like, would it have been the same experience.
I'll answer the second one first. I think, I think because those changes are, am I doing namely like ending my marriage and, and making the job change with, with like an asterisk that I'll come back to, but making that job change, I wanted to do it. And so I think it gave me a little fortitude that, well, you got yourself in this, you've got to figure out how to power through it.
I think if, you know, he had asked for the divorce and surprised me or You know, if my, the job situation had been different or if some, if, you know, suddenly I found myself pregnant as opposed to having three year olds, I think it would have rocked me more because I tend to be self reliant. The asterisk on the job was technically my position at work was eliminated.
And they just, you know, they had a job ready for me and Marti, we're going to move you into this job. And I said, no, thank you. I do not want that job. And I found my own role, which was a huge, it was a pay cut. It was a blow to my ego, but I got to be home at regular hours when my kids were around. So I made this conscious decision and then eventually like made other decisions to get myself back to salary and things that I wanted to be.
But I would say that how I got through that has given me the confidence for almost any life change I've had to make since then. So I made the decision to leave corporate America, quote unquote, at after 17 years and moved to nonprofit. And I felt like, well, you can, you can do this, right? You've done it before.
You've made huge job changes. This is fine. And if it's not fine, then, you know, you know how to, how to come back from it. Oh. And I think it's also been how I, other folks have come to me who want to make huge career changes. Marti, how did you do it? And I was like, I, for me, I just did it right. Like, um, I think some folks have a very detailed plan.
I tend to like have this, like, I don't know, you worked with me and Naomi, I have a plan in mind. And then I think you just gotta be squishy enough to wiggle your way through anything. Well, and I wonder, though, you know, you, you didn't come out and say it, but I think you were leading to, like, that you don't have a plan in mind, but what you do have is a really, really solid integrity, and I would offer a really solid set of values that you hold dear to yourself, and maybe that is part of the plan, is not straying from those.
I think that's fair because like my, I like to believe that my principles guide the decisions that I make and if I feel myself straying too far from them, then I know that's a moment where my gut's like, Whoa, hold on a second here. You know, I've, I've gotten pretty far in interview. Processes with jobs that I'm like, you don't even want this job.
Why are you, why are you doing this? You know, like you don't even like these people and then I'll back out of it. So I was thinking when I was looking at some of the ideas you'd thrown out, and I wrote a note because I was like, I have to say this to Naomi too, is I like change. That I control. I like that you pointed that out, right?
And about every two years I get itchy for a job change. I don't have to like leave a company or anything, but just itchy for something new and fresh. It's about every two or three years. I start looking at my car like, Oh, that's the worst thing ever. Why did I ever buy that? And unfortunately for my husband, I do that with houses too.
I'm just like. Well, I'm tired of this, whereas he would be like, all right, this is, this is where they'll find our bodies when we die in our sleep in our 90s. When you said, unfortunately for your husband, I thought it was going to be, and it's the same with my spouses. No, it's uh, unfortunately for him, I have not changed my mind on him.
After a few years, isn't that, isn't that the thing though, like that is, that's like an unwritten or unspoken rule that we're supposed to be at a thing forever. And if we're truthful and part of what believing well concept really is meant to disturb a little bit is that endings are necessary and a part of reality.
I wonder if you would share your advice. And it can be paragraph form, it could be bullet point form, whichever you prefer. What if someone's listening that's kind of in the same boat of, they've had some things, some change, some decisions come their way, and maybe they're not squishy around their resilience and are struggling.
I think my guidance would be is you have to check in with what your priorities are and your values are, and even if you've got to write them down and put them on a post it note someplace where you see them, which I have to do sometimes, like this is your goal, and when you feel yourself or when someone else Sees you straying from that pull yourself back But then the part b of that is you've got to have like your kitchen cat kitchen table cabinet of which you are a member Where you can have trusted people who know those values and I I don't know I guess share those values But at least they know what you value And you've got to be willing to say.
All right, you've got to call me on my shit when I start getting Banana pants and start spiraling, but you have to be vulnerable enough to say I need help in this. Like I don't maybe ask for advice a whole lot, but I will ask people for this is where I'm headed. Can you keep an eye on me and tell me when I start straying from that, that that's what works with my style anyway.
And then you've got to keep checking in with, with those priorities and with those values. I always say I don't have a plan, but I do. Unfortunately, you know, or fortunately, I love it. It lives in my head. I think for people who maybe are more structured, like truly writing it out, but it's not just like the timeline and milestones.
I think it's like, how do I want to feel at each stage of this as well? And check in with like, if you're frantic the whole time, I think you've got to go back and see, is this really aligned with my value? I love that you said that so much, uh, because that is something that I actually added in. To the work is.
A retooling or refresh values. I think it's really easy to get far away from them or even forget what they were or how they're supposed to show up. I also love that you talked about having someone or a group of people kind of hold your riverbanks up for you around. Hey, I think you're straying and I need some eyes on this or on me.
That's really powerful. It takes a lot of guts, I think, though, too, because I, like I said, I don't ask for help very well, but I found a core group of friends that I know I can ask for help, and they know that when I'm asking, I really mean it. Yeah. I do appreciate, also, when you said, you said something about you're not asking, actually, for advice.
Could you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think that can hold people back from asking for help, because they don't, I don't know that any of us really want or need advice. So I'd love for you to share. What is it that you want instead? I want somebody, usually I want somebody to listen to me.
They don't have to agree with me. And in fact, I love it when somebody is like, well, I kind of see it this way. What do you think? And we can have that conversation. And I said that because I also don't like giving advice. Because I don't know what's going on in somebody's head. And I'll, you know, somebody comes to me, I'll say, do you want me to just to listen or do you want advice or you're, you know, for a cry, because I can do any of that and I'm bummed when other people don't ask me that.
So I'll just tell them like, I don't need you to tell me what to do. Will you please listen? And based on how you know me, does this sound like me? Cause I feel like it might not sound like me. That makes sense. It does make sense. And it's, it's so interesting because I was going to ask you, what's the thing that maybe you wish you'd had however many years ago that was, but it, that almost might be the answer.
Yes. And I think I didn't have like a solid friend group as I went through like that giant life change. I had a couple of close friends who, if anybody listening has gone through a divorce, sometimes you get to keep your friends and sometimes you don't. And those friendships were really. tenuous at the time because he and I were both friends with them.
I was completely changing work groups. So I lost like my, you know, like work buddies at least and was entering a new team, so I didn't, I didn't have consultation. And I think that's part of why I really, I really didn't feel like myself for like the better part of a year now. I've worked really hard to establish really solid friendships with people.
I truly, truly can trust with the truth and say like, Hey, I've got to, I've got to unload and I need a little bit of. You know, I love your concept of rubber banks, so I steal it and use it all the time. Yeah, good. I'm glad it's, it's meant so much to me in the development of using it because it is perfect.
We can't control what happens in the middle. For somebody like me who doesn't like, I will resist a guardrail and a wall. If somebody, if I put it there, it's fine. If somebody else puts a wall up or I will do my best to get through it. So a riverbank, I get to kind of squish around a little bit. Yeah, literally squish.
And I think the other beautiful thing about riverbank is like we all know what happens when the flood waters come up and over. And so it helps me anyway, remember, like do everything possible to keep the riverbanks high enough. Then we don't seep over, but, but squishy, can I share a thing with you and you can decide whether or not to use it in that time of huge transition.
And I told you, like, just was not prioritizing myself at all, which I think probably happens to parents of toddlers. It probably happens to people in job changes to people in divorce. And then, you know, you combine all that stuff I had. Like a reckoning. I don't know why I don't, I don't know what drove this, but I, I got to a point where if I wasn't parenting, I was working and vice versa.
Like I, I can remember at the time I was a project manager and the system we were using like blew up and I was home. Prior to like remote, you know, exclusive kind of work. I was home because one of my twins was sick. And when a twin is sick, they send both of them home. And I had one of them on my lap and the other one on the couch.
And I was sitting at my desk with my laptop, trying to solve a problem that was almost impossible to solve and like messaging and emailing. And my daughter threw up all over me and we just had to like, all you can do is laugh. All you could do was sit there and we were both, and she felt better and we just had this moment.
So after that, I was so frazzled and so run down and like snapping at them and snapping at work. What I wanted to share was I had this moment after that, that I was like, I'm going to get up. I am not a morning person. I'm going to get up early before anyone in the world gets up and 30 to 45 minutes of quiet.
And I can drink my coffee. I could read a book. I could work out, but that was my time because what was happening is everything was frantic from the moment I got up until the moment I tried to go to sleep. And so by changing that, which I do to this day is I get up earlier than everybody else because it is my time.
And so I just, I shared that because it wasn't that big of a change, but it, it like changed my life. It changed how I acted with my kids and at work and with myself. I am glad that you shared that. And I think it also says something about. Being paying attention and being aware of like, what is it that could make this moment better.
I get up early too. And there's also something to be said about getting that early first brain matter that's rested that has been shut down overnight. That isn't for anyone else, anyone that's involved in caretaking, whether it's parenting or older parents or folks that have, you know, a need for that. It can just be a lot.
So. I love that you shared that. Okay, so one of the things that I promise listeners on this podcast is that we will say things that might be shocking or surprising or slightly irreverent, uh, in the terms or in the concept of leaving or workplace transitions, things that aren't normally said. Do you have anything that you would offer there, something that might surprise or shock someone about change or workplace stuff?
The thing that comes to my mind first and I think is the right thing is when you're leaving a career and maybe less so if it's like retirement end of career, but if you're changing, if you're changing jobs, you're changing companies. I think we, as humans, I can only speak for myself, but my observation is that we're so concerned with I don't know if it's legacy or the feelings or any of that.
And what I tell people is they will miss you at first and then they will move on really, really quickly because it can feel like if I'm not here, who's going to take care of my team because we care about people. If I'm not here, I just want to finish this project first. And I tell them just go right.
Just go. And it sounds cold, but most companies will not hesitate to make cuts when they feel they need to, and not worry about your feelings. They may give compensation, they may give you some grace as far as timing, but at the end of the day, you are a line. In a ledger and so I get it and I know why and I cried very hard when I left my team when I left that corporation because I cared about them as people and I could still talk to the people I wanted to talk to after that but I think that's one of the best things I can tell people we're leaving.
They will remember you for a short amount of time and then you will be like, Oh, yeah, I remember when Marti worked here. Yeah, we liked her, whatever. And then they move on and they have a new boss. So that's, that's my feeling. I love that also, because there's so much space, especially in nonprofit world, maybe in corporate too.
I just haven't had that much experience myself in corporate land that when we sit down or when we leave. There's a space then that someone else can step into or an opportunity that someone else can raise their hand for. And even looking at it from that vantage point of like you leaving something has a moment of sadness and a moment of nostalgia and all those things.
But it also means someone else gets to now take it forward and maybe, maybe do it better. Well, and it made me think the nonprofit that I worked at and then eventually left. I was bummed because I felt like I did a good job there, but also there was another opportunity and my conversation with my supervisor at the time, who I think was trying to like needle me a little bit about leaving supportive, but also like, Hmm, why are you doing this?
Is I recommended somebody who I was like, this person is going to be better than me. Like we love you. How is that possible? And I said, they're just going to bring different strengths. They're going to look at things in a different way. They're probably going to unbattle you less. Um, your life will be easier.
And that person got the job and is still in the job. And I got to say, like, probably. We doing it better than me, just because they brought in different experiences and they're flourishing. So part of me is like, thank goodness I left because it was a perfect role for this person. So thank goodness, you know, open to space.
I like that idea of thinking about it in that way. Yeah. And I think it's, I think I see it a lot with founders. Or involuntarism, board of directors, all of those kinds of moments, too, where maybe you've been asked to come on and do something because someone knows your skill set, and then you kind of bury your feet and wiggle your rear end into the sand of like, I'm the one that's here.
I'm the one that can do this. And we just, we miss out on letting other people have the opportunity. So. Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to ask you, uh, two more questions. One is if there's anything that you want to share that I haven't asked within the second question, just being a, a simple, what is leaving well being to you, what I haven't answered, I think is, I think there's like a bad reputation around people who enjoy change, which is interesting because I think Workplaces and life in general requires you to change in transition, but there's like this weird caveat of like, but only as much as we think you should change.
So, for example, for a long, long time, I worked in HR for a long time, for a really long time, there was like this phrase job hopper and oh my gosh, we're looking at this person's resume and they had multiple positions. But the pushback over the last handful of years, particularly from HR is like, yeah, but look, they're progressing through the career, or it looks like an hourly wage job.
We have to wonder, were they getting paid more to go to this other place? People move, life changes. Places have layoffs. So I think we're doing a better job in the workplace of asking, but not everybody. And it gets, it's, it just carries this weight of like, Oh, they're dissatisfied, so they'll move on. So that means they'll leave us.
I would rather look at it like, well, let's get two, five years. of really good quality from this person. Let's give to them, have them give to us, value the relationship. And if they want to move on, what we've made the most of that situation. So I think, I think we need to lean into people need a variety of experiences in life, in the workplace.
And listen to their reasoning of why did you leave this, you know, tell me more about these experiences. If we're talking in the workplace, you know, it's kind of like relationships. Like if somebody was like, oh, my gosh, she dated a ton. You know, what's wrong with her and it's like, I don't know, maybe nothing, you know, maybe she just likes to change it up a little bit.
So I, I don't know. I just, I, I get the friction. I, you know, my husband isn't, uh, he's not change resistant. He's a little risk averse. He likes to have all of the answers before he leaves. And I'm just like, what if we find the answers at the bottom of the cliff? But I wonder, I wonder though, because my husband and I talk all the time about like job loyalty, you know, company loyalty, his upbringing, his generation.
I think values that idea of being with, you know, getting the watch after 20 years. And I wonder if there's a little bit of like, is risk averse the same as loyalty? Are they completely different? You know? So I'm just, I don't have an answer to that, but it's, it makes me curious. I, I came into the company I worked at, my dad had worked at.
And when I My first sick day, I called him in tears. I was like, I have to call them. I was a grown woman. I was like in my twenties. And he was like, okay. Cause he'd never had a sick day and like worked through cancer treatments and all of this stuff. And the reason I bring him up is because, and maybe I've shared this with you personally, when my dad died.
People missed him, individuals, that company did not miss him and seeing that because we worked in the same place, seeing that happen was life changing for me. Like it changed my perspective and this was even before the other, you know, giant change in my life. My perspective on the workplace changed in an instant.
And so that also gave me, I think, courage to lead the way I wanted to lead when I had people work for me and shaped my leadership philosophy. And also when I decided to leave companies, I was like, like I said, they'll miss you for a short amount of time and then they will move on. People will miss you.
And maybe that goes to what you said about like concepts about leaving. Well, I believe strongly in. Genuine relationships with people, I am friendly to almost everybody as my nature, you know, I've got like my top three strengths in there is woo. So I will win others over. Um, I will charm the pants off yet, but my number one is relater and whether or not you, you know, care about string spider or anything like that.
The reason I say it is I care about genuine connections with people. And so when I am leaving, it matters to me that if there are people I truly care about that are kind of being left behind, they feel empowered and okay to move forward without me. But I think that's because I, I, you know, I'm doing that along the way that they might, again, people might miss you, but the rest will be okay.
And then. Kind of not worrying about the rest of it. Like it's truly, you know, okay. Yeah. That person was nice to me at work and they seem pleasant enough and, and we exchanged pleasantries in the, in the hallway. They'll be okay. They will not think of you after you're gone. And I find that freeing. I find it really liberating of take care of the people that you have a genuine connection with and then be okay with.
Not knowing what's going to happen after you leave. And I think it's important. You can answer some questions and I'm mostly talking about like workplace, but I love you brought up like boards and things. Of course, I'm available. If you want to ask me some questions, go for it. But man, I think you, you cannot keep reaching back, right?
You can offer up your support. You can even maybe do a check in or something, right? How's everybody doing? Sure. You know, the coffee bar, but you've got to let that next. That next seat be filled. Otherwise, like that hanger honor. Oof. I think it's dangerous to the next person coming in. It pulls their power away.
It's dangerous. And now you're like tethered to this old thing. Untethered. Move forward. Yeah. I was writing down as you were talking about the people will, or the company or the organization will miss you for a time and then they'll move on. I think that we have conflated a little bit. Reputation and legacy with it being attached to our names, it can be attached to what we did or what we started or the projects we advanced or the initiatives we or the things we said no to.
But I think that it doesn't have to be attached to our name. And so there's I talk a lot with people around. What's your imprint? What's your legacy? And it's reminding me when you say that. And how can we detach that from your name? Oh, I like that. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you're leaving behind. Are you, you know, are you leaving it the culture more fulfilled?
Do they feel more aligned to their values because you were there and modeling it? You know, it's the culture. I, I believe, like, I hope people feel joy after they interact with me so that I leave it more joyful, but yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be like, well, Marti did it. And Marti did that. It's just like, eventually, nobody knows how it got that way, but it sure does work well.
Yeah. Well, and that's, I think the beauty of the best things that are created in co creation or collaboration is no one really remembers where it came from. And I think that's beautiful for you. I mean, you said that very simply, but it shouldn't be that Marti brought me joy. It's that, Oh my gosh. I feel joy on a Friday afternoon and I, and that person then is able to ripple that out, you know, to their people too.
Marti, thank you. I feel like we need to have another episode specifically about like HR and dig into that a little bit. I love it. And particularly, you know, as you talk to folks on transitioning in careers, Or at the end of a career or into something I guess we're kind of, I kind of keep thinking about like leaving something but as coming into something and how what are you leaving well behind.
Yeah, I think there's also the like logistics of some of that, that we power through and then we're like, Oh no, I forgot to do this, or I need to file that, that kind of stuff. It's like the unsexy part of things. I've recently helped a couple of folks through a reorganization and. Some folks moving to new jobs and others taking severance agreements or separation agreements and like big giant life changes and how I feel you should usher people through it, right?
Like, it can be laborious, but I think it's really important to help people feel okay when they stop making phone calls, like, okay, everything's settled and maybe that's like leaving well is like, everything feels. It's settled. It doesn't have to feel perfect, but maybe it's like, you know, the waves stop crashing a little bit.
And I think leaving well offers an opportunity to mitigate damage and trauma. So it's not ever going to be perfect, but it's, it's okay. I love that you said like, okay, is a really good thing to strive for. Yeah. And especially if maybe a change or transition is happening to you. So like full circle to what you talked about, if we're driving it, we have a little bit, maybe perceived, maybe reality, like control on how we leave things.
But if it's, you know, done to us or around us, and we feel a little helpless, how can we get to, it's okay, it's, it's okay, right? And maybe the legacy that we leave behind is like, it's okay, like nobody, nobody got hurt, you know, at a fair minimum. Well, and if you think about policies. Whether it's in the workplace or whatever, it's literally to just kind of make sure everyone's okay.
It's not this, like, there's no huge promises. It's right. Are we all? Okay. Just everybody set expectations for each other, and let's do our very best to navigate in those spaces together. Yeah, it brings back opportunities to treat each other with kindness, like you were talking about with Joy. Um, and I think that there are a lot of lessons that you could bring us, which is why I'm suggesting another episode around how HR professionals and people, people can bring in some small, but really mighty.
Maybe shifts and transitions and the way that they help others leave and come in. Yeah, I'd be happy to. Marti, thank you so much for joining me and having a conversation about your own personal experience and relationship with change and transition. I appreciate you. I appreciate you.
It is my pleasure to learn more about Leaving Well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace, visit naomihattaway.com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide, to shift culture, and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.