07: Tanya Geisler, on the Imposter Complex and Leaving Well
Tanya Geisler is a Leadership Coach (CPCC) with a penchant for clarity and an abhorrence of the Imposter Complex. She’s worked with thousands of high-performers combat the Imposter Complex so they can lead with impeccable impact and achieve their ultimate goals. She is a TEDxWomen speaker and writer who teaches high-performing leaders how to combat their Imposter Complex and lead with impeccable impact so they can achieve their ultimate goals. Her clients include best-selling authors, heads of industries, MPs, public speakers, leaders, entrepreneurs and rockstar motivators.
It is her indomitable belief that if everyone knew their own unique recipe for their personal brand of joy, they’d hold the key to shining in their life, in their work and in their life’s work. (It really does change everything.)
In this episode Tanya and I discuss Imposter Complex and how it shows up when facing big transitions. We also chat about the relationship of transitions in the workplace to menopause and empty nesting (yep, we went there) and the unpopular reality that we are actually, always (bold, underline) in transition.
“When you are on the precipice of that something new, something important, something great, something wonderful, you get to have this arsenal of proof.
Looking at all of these moments in your life, all of these decisions that you didn’t maybe recognize as precipice moments, add that up and you’ve got this. You’ve got this and then some.”
Additional Quotes:
“Leaving well is someone getting on the train to leave this place well, feeling as complete as possible, having left it better than we found it. If you don’t solve for what is happening in your world right here, right now, it will follow you wherever you go - whatever train you get on. This is your opportunity to leave this aspect behind.”
“Usually how we want to feel in one area of our lives, is how we want to feel in other areas. Which then will always inform how I move forward and how I deepen into my devotion or reverence for each particular part of my life.”
To learn more about Tanya:
Recommended reading from this episode:
To learn more about Leaving Well, click here.
My Bookshop.org Leaving Well library has many resources to support your workplace transition journey!
To support and contribute to the production costs of this podcast:
This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
Transcription:
So when you are on the precipice of that, something new, that's something important, something great, something wonderful. So you get to have this arsenal of proof. And so looking at all of these moments in your life, all of these decisions that you didn't maybe recognize as precipice moments, you've had that up and you've got this and you've got this.
And then some.
This is Leaving Well, where we unearth and explore the realities of leaving a job, role, project, or title with intention and purpose, and when possible, joy. I'm Naomi Hattaway, your host. I will bring you experiences and lessons learned about necessary endings in the workplace, with nuanced takes from guests on topics such as grief.
Confidence leadership and career development braided throughout will be solo episodes, sharing my best practices and leaving well framework. Expect to be inspired, challenged, and reminded that you too can embed and embody the art and practice of leaving well as you seek to leave your imprint in this world.
Tanya Geisler is a leadership coach with a penchant for clarity and an abhorrence of the impostor complex. She's worked with thousands of high performers to combat the imposter complex so they can lead with impeccable impact and achieve their ultimate goals. She is a TEDx women's speaker and writer who teaches high performing leaders how to combat their imposter complex and lead with impeccable impact so they can achieve their ultimate goals.
Her clients include best selling authors, heads of industries, MPs, public speakers, leaders, entrepreneurs, and rock star motivators. It is Tanya's indomitable belief that if everyone knew their own unique recipe for their personal brand of joy, they would hold the key to shining in their life, in their work, and in their life's work.
And I can attest that it really does change everything. In this episode, Tanya and I discuss imposter complex and how it shows up when facing big transitions. We also chat about the relationship of transitions in the workplace to menopause and empty nesting. Yep, we went there. We also discuss the unpopular reality that we are actually always, bold and underline, in transition.
So, we were, we were riffing before I pressed record. You were talking about the thing with transition is. The thing with transition is, we're always in transition. So, you know, when I was thinking about, and I talk. Not surprisingly, as a leadership coach, I'm perpetually working with my clients through a place of transition.
The next this, the next level. Uh, because that's when the imposter conflict shows up on the precipice of expansion. On the precipice of transition. Am I ready for the next? And the reality is, we're perpetually in transition. We're perpetually in the next, and the next, and the next, and the next. And sometimes we don't even know it until...
We're on the other side of it. Uh, what I was thinking about like big transition in my own life. You know, like leaving, like leaving my corporate job to start my coaching company, you know, that was some coming up on 20 years ago. That's a really long time ago. And I don't remember it being this. Like, I don't know that I had the process that I would now have in and around preparing for a transition.
Yeah, so I mean, this is, this is where we start is I think we're just perpetually in a state of transition. So I agree with you that we're perpetually in a state of transition. And I think that one of the, especially with women, I find that. We don't have the words to say it or to name it as such. And then we kind of spend a lot of time thinking it's just us that might be feeling this or this experience of that transition is a solo experience.
And I'm guessing the more I talk to folks and the more I sit with my own experiences, that's not really true. No, it's not. It's not really true. I think probably. In my, in my life and in the, Oh, this really big thing is about to happen, showed up in and around our daughter going to university. That empty nesting moment.
What I really noticed about preparing for this empty nesting was. Boy, I wanted to do it right. Boy, oh boy, did I want to do it right. Did I want to have a checklist to, to do it perfectly, to do it right, to anticipate the grief, anticipate the needs, have that notion board open so that should this happen, then I do this, right?
Hired the therapist, worked with the coach, like, like I really wanted to, to, to get the gold stars on this. And I didn't, and I didn't, but I don't even know what those gold stars would look like. But that was probably the one, the moment that I, you know, it was like. You know, I've written about this many different times in many different ways.
It was like the slowest moving train, right? Like it was, I knew it was coming. I knew it was coming. So for years, I had been anticipating what all of this was going to feel like. And of course, it wasn't anything like what I thought it was going to be even a little bit. I often think about the correlation between Empty nesting and menopause, and I think there's likely some age related, uh, body chemistry related similarities into when that often happens, especially in decades past the way that we have societally had children at a certain age, and then they're leaving the nest at a certain age about the same time that often maybe we're going through menopause.
And I think, I, I watch so many people talking now about menopause and it's like, oh, finally, finally, but what's happening is that more of us as we experience it, those of us that have ways to talk about it and have a voice, it's, it's, it's now out into the world. And I think the same thing about empty nesting until we've had, we have this idea of what it's going to be.
And until it's one of our children, we don't know what to expect. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, I've been really careful about saying that too, because I realize like everything else that I'm waking up to, first person who's talking about this, certainly not the first person experiencing this, definitely not the first person talking about this.
So it's just like, Oh, oh, that's right. I'm now, I'm just now in a frequency where I can hear it. So there have been conversations, I wasn't attuned to it. Now, that's not entirely true when it comes to menopause, thinking about the fact that I was listening, I heard some somebody talking about how it's only in the 80s that women were actually included in the majority of clinical trials for just about anything.
Wait, what? So That's new information to me, somebody else is listening is like, you know, that even possible wasn't awake to it. Hi, social justice, right? Hi, like, like, oh, white supremacy is a problem. Yes, yes, most, most definitely. And it most certainly predates the, the, the last couple of years that it's only now on a lot of white folks radar, right?
Like it's, it's, to me, it's not the same at all, but it's the same. It's very much the same. What are we, Right. aware of and now how do we honor the teachers who have come before us? Yeah, absolutely. And I, I, I think that when you think around a child leaving your home to go off to whatever it is that they're doing next.
So I have two that have done that. And my last one is just starting this week, her senior year of high school. And I also think that the more, so you're right. It's not, we're not the first ones to experience it, but the more. Of our unique experiences we can share about it gives others a more comprehensive way to dig through and sift through and say, oh, that matches mine.
I think that fills my bucket or that fits my need. And so I think around transition and change, the more we can talk about it, the more we can normalize. It's good for everyone. I could not agree more. You know, we are watching, you and I are watching, um, a friend of, a mutual friend of ours go through the grieving process of losing her mom slowly, slowly, slowly, uh, to Alzheimer's and she's now like very end of life and I'm reading a lot of Sarah Alvarado's writing and recognizing how.
Much solace I would have experienced as my own mother was dying and so I'm so grateful and also there's a lot of healing for me to just read it as well, but just really grateful for the gift that she is offering other folks who are about to go down that a similar road, you know, recognizing it's always going to be unique experience for each and every one of us.
There is no one way there is no notion board of checklists of how to do any of this right. What would you say on that kind of same route. line of thinking around grief and how that shows up for you. Maybe it's in the work that you do with your clients. Maybe it's in your own personal family life. Maybe it's just inside of yourself.
How does grief show up for you on a regular basis as you process new changes and new transitions? Is it one and done? Do you think it's a wave of consistency that needs to be met? I kind of think of it as Almost like, I want to say a ball of, just a big ball of different strands of, of grief. So I think of like, yeah, so I think of it, grief as kind of this, yeah, it's like this unit, you know, and when you start pulling on one thread.
Empty nesting. Boy, oh boy, did my grief about my mom and my dad start to show up and my grief about, you know, maybe decisions I'd made. So it wasn't simply, have I done the right things? Have I given her everything she needs? You know, all of that. It wasn't just that, or just the fact that I'm just going to miss.
Her presence, right? Missing when she walks by my office and does like a little fit check, you know, like just missing that. It was all of the other strands that came with it. I've been seeing an osteopath. So now I'm like obsessed with the idea of the fascia. So I'm like, Oh, maybe it's more like fascia, right?
It's like all super connected, but like start poking on my, you know, poke it on my, the top of my foot. And like, I feel like it's probably a lot more like that. And so given that. If it is fascia, let's just say that, then you kind of can't escape it. It's just kind of always here. We're never not quite sure where we're going to get poked and then where it's going to show up elsewhere.
And so thinking of it as a sort of like a traveling companion, which I would also say with the imposter complex, by the way, I think it's just like, how do we navigate it when it shows up? How do we navigate it? And what we don't do is we don't judge ourselves or make ourselves wrong. I had a client who talked a little bit about.
Sort of a similar ish context, but the vision that just kind of came through for me is like, you know, walking along a path in the forest and we mean to go that way. We're like, heading that way. And then, you know, there's a tree that's, that, that, that's felled. And now we have to, like, we have to go around the tree.
We're not mad at the tree. We're not mad at ourselves for going down this path that there's a felled tree. Like, we just, we just like navigate it. We just go around. We, we, we deal with it. We're allowed to feel like, yeah, Like, this is not what I wanted to have happen, but I gotta go around it. And so I feel like that's just the same, I, I, I have come to be perfectly fine with the fact that seeing a man walking on the street that looks a lot like my dad, that can just kind of unwind me for a couple of minutes, I'm allowed to just be unwound for a couple of minutes.
I think that's such good advice. And knowing to pass along for folks listening, because going back to thinking that it's all just us that I must be the only one experiencing this being able to settle and sit with whatever it is. I love that you talk about the imposter complex being a travel companion.
It's always going to be there. And how do you work around it and I also love when you said that we just navigate around it using that tree idea. Hmm. You sidestep or you hop over or you, some people might get their tools and start to dismantle it in front of them, you know, I mean, we all get to choose that way.
And I think there's something powerful and around the idea of we decide. And so I'd love to hear your thoughts on our decision making power and our own permission slips. Sure, sure, sure. You know, even as you were talking about that, that. You know, we look at that and I would not judge somebody for going around going under like dirt or just hanging out and taking pictures of the spores on the right, like we get to just hang out there too.
So all of it is okay. So if we're allowed that, why are we not allowed any of that in our grief or as we're navigating these transitions, right? Like, We have these, these beliefs about what we're allowed or the statute of limitations is, you know, run out on your ability to grieve. Or, you know, you're, you're empty nesting, right?
You're empty nesting. All of it. All of it. Nonsense. We get to do it. We have to do it in our own way. One of the things I talk about. Um, a lot is what your particular brand of joy is joy, you know, you know, we've had this conversation and joy can feel like, like dimples and sparklers and champagne and people are like, yeah, super over that.
I think it's really important that we connect with what we, I, what we recognize as joy for ourselves. So for me to experience what I name as joy, I have to feel connection. I have to feel gratitude and I have to feel generosity. So I want to feel that with you here, my friend, I want to hear, I'm going to feel that in when I'm on stage, I want to feel that when I'm with my daughter, I want to, anybody that I love.
And I can actually also feel profound joy from that perspective inside of grief. And I think that that's, again, that that's what I name as joy. Somebody else might have a very different name for what they would call joy. Some call it connection. I can name what a couple of our mutual friends would call it.
Some would call it freedom. Some would call it. You can still experience that in anything that you do. So I can feel, inside of that transition of empty nesting, I can still feel joy. Not just that benevolent joy, you know, where people were like, Why aren't you just happy that your daughter is spreading her wings?
Because I'm selfish, damn it! I want her snuggled on the couch watching RuPaul's Drag Race with me! That's why! That's why, and yes, I can be happy, and yes, I can be, I can be so proud of her, and so, feel so blessed that this is even an option for us to have this life experience together. And I can feel grief, and I can feel joy, and I can feel all of that.
I think, and something that came up when you were just talking about that, the, I can, I can be sad and I am selfish, damn it, is also, I wonder, you know, I'm just thinking for myself. I've invested a lot of time into my children. I've invested a lot of time into my work. I've invested a lot of time into insert any of the things that someone might be thinking around a transition.
And there's also some unwinding to be done around legacy. And when someone is leaving, or when the leaving is happening, I think we innately go back to, did I do enough? Did I do the right thing? How will someone remember me? How will I be known? And I think that comes into play when our children leave as well.
And so I'd love your thoughts on legacy and the work that we've done. Oh, legacy, legacy, legacy, legacy. I will say for, for myself, just, you know, again, I think it's always really important when we're speaking for ourselves to speak for ourselves. So my daughter, Did choose to go to university and not everybody's path, also chose to go to university 10 subway stops away, lives in a residence, still 10 subway stops away, still not doing a fit check with me first thing in the morning, still not wanting her lost track race.
So she's in a really great spot. I love, I, I think a lot about this question. I actually have a program called Iconic Legacy, or a space for, for some of my clients, where we look at what are the areas of your life that are meaningful and that you are leaving the mark, the kind of, Impact that you are wanting to have.
So that is how you've shown up in your relationships, how you're showing up in your vocation, how you're showing up in your purpose, how you're showing up in your leadership, how you're showing up in your social justice, how you're showing up in your spirit, right? How are you? So how are you doing all of these things?
So these are all aspects and facets of, of legacy for me and from, from my understanding. And so it, and this is, you know, the work that I do with, with all my Sure. We're talking about. This one particular aspect, maybe that you're leaving while you're transitioning into and out of, but what is the context for your whole life and where, what are the impacts and all of these distinct places.
And usually, how we want to feel in one area is how we want to feel in all of the areas. So for me again, that's joy. So I want to feel as deeply generous, connected, and grateful as possible and all of these different aspects, which is always going to happen. inform how I move forward and how I deepen into my devotion or my reverence for that particular area of my life, which can also be other people's lives as well.
I love the image that I'm thinking about as you're talking about deepening in and the impact because that also changes where we navigate and orient from. So if we have a path where we say, using that tree, as an example, we stop and look at the spores and take photographs, that place that we then orient for the next decision is different than had we gone and gotten the chainsaw and started attacking, you know, getting the tree out of the way.
And so as you deepen into your value of joy, that changes your orientation for the next thing or the next time. And that feels really powerful. 100%. 100%. So I can, so I think of a lot of things in terms of threes and triumvirates and it's just, it's just helpful for me because I can typically feel where I get out of balance.
Uh, and so usually I don't look at things like either or, even though I'm a Libran. I do look at things in, in threes and so. recognizing that I can feel deeply generous and grateful for something, but if I'm not feeling connected, womp womp, you know, so having that triumvirate as looking at it sort of like three different stool legs is, is really helpful for me.
So, you know, We've all done some kind of, whether we call them core desired feelings, or, or we've done some values work, most folks that will be listening will have done some kind of values work. I think that understanding what those underpinning values are for you is actually incredibly helpful. Because for me, if I were to, sorry, I just went sideways into this joy for a hot second.
I just felt like maybe there was a little more context needed. If I were to say, how can I feel more joy in this moment? Morning. I would, in this moment, I would probably roll my eyes at myself. I'd be like, wait, what? What do you, like, what are you talking about? I am in harsh dispute with somebody about something that I'm really fired up about.
And you want me to prioritize joy? Come on now. But can I feel. Can I drop in and feel a little more grateful, a little more connected to myself, possibly in them, and can I feel a little more generous? That will be my hot ticket back or my super high way back to how I want to feel. I love that because it also gives some permission that you don't have to be all of it at the same time.
You just lean one way almost. But I think I would agree with you that most folks listening to this have done some work around their core desired feelings and values. But what I would offer as a challenge is that I think most of us don't keep them front and center in our everyday, right? We can spout them off.
If you asked me, you know, what are your values? People can always say, well, I I value this and this and this, but it's, are they actually being practiced and do they show up in the way that you bring yourself to your work? So I'm glad that you brought that up, especially about kind of the three legged stool, uh, cause that gives some ease.
What would you say is something maybe shocking or a little irreverent about change and transition that people might either be surprised to hear or be so thankful that you said, okay. So when I look at the work that I've done with the imposter complex. Three things the imposter complex wants to do.
Always, always, always remember that I'm talking about this through the lens of my lived experience as a white, neurotypical, able bodied woman of middle class means. Okay, always put that context in terms of like what I'm saying so that it might not be everybody else's truth as you listen. But I will say that the imposter complex shows up very uniquely for most people, distinctly for most people, and very much shows up on the precipice of something new, something exciting, something important, something that matters.
So that's just kind of like a baseline. That's generally where it's going to show up. I'm not talking about, you know, your boss saying you need to get over your imposter syndrome. Like I'm not talking about that. That's gaslighting. That is like, wait a minute. You want me to do what? But I have no institutional ground cover.
That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the fact where you have, you know, that you want to do this thing, but it is going to require of you. The imposter complex wants to keep us out of action, doubting our capacity and alone and isolated. That's its three main objectives. So how we deal with that is very systematic, et cetera.
This part here that you have been, your life is one ginormous transition. Every damn day you were in transition. So when you are on the precipice of that, something new, that's something important, something great, something wonderful. You have to remind yourself on a cellular level. All the times that you have been exactly here doesn't look the same.
But it's the same trust. When I tell you it is the same the first time you were asked to manage somebody the first time you were handed that child, the first time you were, you know, the first time you were nominated, the first time you raised your hand, the first time you, you said, no, these were all precipice moments and your life is.
filled with them. So you get to have this arsenal of proof. They're like, if I can do that and that and that and that and that and that and that and that, and that, and that, and that, then I'm pretty sure that I can sign the lease on that. You better believe I can. And so looking at all of these moments in your life, all of these decisions that you didn't maybe recognize as precipice moments.
You add that up and you've got this and you've got this and then some but here's the catch Most people who are hearing that they're like I did I get it, but I can't really remember those moments. Here's why you don't celebrate. You don't celebrate, which doesn't allow you to lock in the effort, the goodness of what you have done, right?
You're already onto the next thing because the ego wants to want more than it wants to get. But celebrating allows us to integrate this moment, allows us to integrate the gravitas Of being handed that child, being asked to lead, saying that no, we have to celebrate these moments, else when we are at the next precipice, we're like, I didn't do anything!
Bullshit! Such bullshit, and I, I had to grab, I had to grab my Worthy Work notebook. Because it's exactly that, when we don't write down and celebrate to be able to integrate. I love that you said lock in, because this notebook is full of seemingly small things, seemingly small moments, but when I look back at it, it totally reminds me of where I'm equipped to do.
All of the things. I also love that you said, sign the lease, because the thing about leases is they're always revocable. It's never forever. So if we've, if we've gone on that path to remind ourselves of our innate worth and ability to do the thing, and we have the arsenal of proof to then help us sign the lease, then go do that for as long as it needs to be done.
There's always room for 2. 0! You can always caveat, you absolutely, and I love, I love that you showed us the, the, the, the, the weight of it, right? The weight of it. I mean, I have, this is, this is very funny as of my Yamine folder. This is version number seven of my Yamaneah folder. I can't lose. Put all seven?
Yeah, I'm going to visually describe. So I first held up a very sparkly covered journal that says worthy work on the front of it. There's a gold clip that holds it to where the current entry is blank page for me to keep adding. And then Tanya, will you visually describe your Yamaneah? This is so a Yemeni folder is a physical actual physical folder that I've been that I've been keeping.
I've been keeping now my seventh version. It is the first one was Just so beautiful. I can't even tell you. I mean, I could show it to you, but it was so beautiful. It was so artful. There's this collage. It's basically like a vision board on top of this, this folder. The current one that I'm holding up right now is a beautiful, uh, it's an image of a woman in a red dress with red hair, which is not mine, but there's a sun or right behind.
And then on top of it is a beautiful piece of art from my friend, the Aggie Armstrong. Um, It's a woman's face with watercolor. Um, and there's like, there's, it's actually, she does embroidery work as well, mixed media. So inside, it's, it's not quite bursting the seams because I guess it's number seven, but it is cards and, um, letters and messages that I've printed out from people who have, you know, it's everything that makes me just, I call it yum and yay.
I'm a terrible namer of things. Just those you knows, but it's just all the things that make my heart go. Yay. You know, like things I want to hear about the power of my work, the impact of, uh, having worked together. I have, I've got one from you in there too, my friend. Well, and so what I would ask. People to think about.
So I also have a note on my phone and notes, you know, in the notes app called warm fuzzies, and it literally is the digital version of when an email comes and it says, you know, I really appreciated your work in dot dot dot I screenshot it. And I think that there's something to be said about also sometimes asking for that validation.
If it's not coming your way, ask for it. I just recently refreshed my website and I asked a couple of people on projects, would you just give me two sentences about what you most valued about our time together? When they sent those email responses, they went right into my warm fuzzies notes. And it's a good reminder.
So when you're listening, you don't have to create a worthy work notebook like I have. You don't have to have a yam and yay folder like Tanya does. But you can start where It's easy for you to start, start collecting. So it's so interesting. You say you asked, and I feel like for some folks, just that asking can feel the hardest part of all of it.
Um, you know what else might be really hard actually going through and reading what's in your warm and fuzzies folder, your worthy notebook, your Yemeni folder. Like it's a little like your values work. Great. Awesome. Are we checking in? Are we actually checking in? Are we actually allowing ourselves to be immersed in the experience of this gift that folks have given us?
And by the way, it doesn't always feel like the truth. Because it might not feel like it's our truth, but it's their truth. And what do we always do with gifts, right? We receive them for the intention that they've been offered. So, whew, got lots more to say about that. I mean, I will say, though, that the celebration, um, I also want to, for folks who are like, Okay, yeah, easy, just celebrate, just celebrate.
Celebration. To be certain can be one of the hardest things for us to do. One, we've been largely conditioned that never, you know, it's never enough, right? We've got this innate perfectionism imbued in our white supremacy culture characteristics, right? We also know that You know, it's never quite done. I haven't done enough.
All of that. I will never forget as long as I live. I was running a retreat and we're having a conversation about celebration right before we're doing the celebrating. And I said, why is it that we resisted so much? And one. Participant said, and I will never forget this as long as I live, she hadn't said much throughout the entire time, which is more of a, like a, an observer, uh, she was there absorbing it all.
Hadn't, hadn't said, yeah, she hadn't said a lot. And then, so when she finally was like, yeah, I got something to say. I resist celebration because that means that it's
She said, and I never want this day to be over. I never want this experience to be over. So it's hard for me to just, it's hard for me to leave this well is what I, what I heard. And that's why I think that this conversation, this work is so important because we're perpetually leaving. And so how do we not codify it, but how do we, how do we make it so that it isn't.
I don't even want to say make it easier. How do we just make it more kind? Loving? Caring? Human? Something, you know? When you were talking about celebrating and how hard it is sometimes, it came to my, it brought to mind, um, I have a text thread that's titled BOD and it's Board of Directors. And it's a group of women that we all did a weekend retreat once.
And what came out of that was basically. A text thread that is now full of celebrating. So we'll say something like, This feels really awkward to share because I feel like I'm tooting my own horn, but I wanted to share that I was recently featured on Insert Something. And then what happens is the rest of the women on this text thread hype us up.
I can't believe you continue to just impress and amaze and show up in the world and someone else will give a cupcake emoji and someone else will send up a song of celebration. And it's maybe five minutes long, and then we don't have anything on the text thread for a while. And then a week later someone will say, Do you know what just happened to me I'm so excited I just got a promotion, and we'll all, you know, fanfare, fanfare celebration.
And then it goes quiet. And sometimes that BOD text thread is when we need encouragement and support, but most often it's celebration. And I just think that if you can find One person to just say, could you help me celebrate the stuff that might be a step? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. When in the context of my framework, when I talk about posture complex wants to keep you out of action, down in your capacity and alone and isolated that alone and isolated.
leads us to strategies in and around gathering your people, gathering your advisory boards, your board of directors, or even your imaginary advisory boards. What would you imagine somebody who you hold in great esteem would be saying to you, right? So, so this gathering, and again, asking can be really challenging, you know, and we have a lot of yeah, but we've been betrayed.
We've been disappointed. We've been, you know, we've, we've experienced a lot of. tricky things that keep us disconnected, which is a lot more that we've got lots more we could talk about in terms of connection and disconnection, but often You know, people will say, and I'm sure they say this to you too, well, that's not been my experience.
I don't have those people. Most people don't want X, Y, or Z. Those aren't your people. And again, this feels like a, you know, hashtag simple, not easy, but Our job is to find our people, because it's true. Not everybody wants us to succeed. Not everybody, you know, of course, there are plenty of people who are deeply uninterested in our wins, our successes.
And so when, but, you know, usually comes in like, well, how do you find your people? And I think that, oh gosh, I used to have it right here, but I took everything down. A poem by Nayyirah Waheed. You're how, you know, this is how, you know, some people, when they hear your story contract other people upon hearing your story expand.
And this is how, you know, so we need to find the expanders and we need to understand that the contractors, those who contract. in our presence, in our greatness, call it what it is. Um, they aren't, they aren't our people. That doesn't mean that we have to do anything. We just can't, those aren't the people that we need to, to bring into the celebration, bring into the full.
They aren't the, they aren't the people to, um, advise us. That's not to say that we have to just Outcast everybody and that we can't be with conscious critique. We just need to be a little more discerning about who our people are. When I find people getting really stuck in that next big step, usually the pattern that they are revisiting happen has something to do with when I tell people this, this is the kind of feedback that I get and it shuts me down.
What am I asking those people for? They're out of people. So that needs to just be the new hashtag. What are you asking those people for? I appreciate that you said it doesn't mean you have to outcast for me. Sometimes it's just a matter of muting or changing my consumption habits around those people. I don't have to like write them a note and say due to unforeseen circumstances, I have changed my relationship with you.
It's just clearing space for the rest to come in. Well, and you know, I think I think about that same kind of a expansion contraction around decisions for the workplace or for projects or for client work. If you're constantly saying yes to the right things, or you're constantly asking the wrong people, how the hell do you think there's going to be space for the right stuff?
I'm going to be space. That is absolutely the truth of it. Is there something that we have not talked about that you most. You know, you asked me what leaving well meant, means to me. And I remember the first time we discussed this. How many years ago was that? It was a lot of years ago. Many. Many years ago, many years ago.
And I remember, um, the visual that came to me when we first discussed it. And it's a vision that I have that I actually reference you once a week, easily once a week about this concept of leaving well, because I see, and I saw them, you know, somebody, what does it mean to leave? Well, it means that you are getting on.
The plane, or maybe something less carbon heavy, uh, maybe get in a train, right? You are leaving this place well. I was later in life when I discovered the joy of camping, uh, which is a very fine period of like a very small period of my life when you had a kid was a certain age. It was like 6 through 10 kind of thing.
And we went with a couple of our friends. And so we, you know, it's, it's always a funny thing when you're of, you know, my 30s when I'd first gone camping and I didn't, No, I didn't have any of the tools. I didn't know what we were doing here. I didn't know that we were like, Oh my God, it's air and, and, and rain.
Those are the two biggest things that you have to contend with when you're camping. It's not theirs. So I didn't know any of this. And I remember my friend Graham sort of like he was our, he, Set up our tent and did all the things. And then he said, you know, I'm sure there's a whole maxim to it, but the idea of like, you leave the campsite better than you found it.
So of course we pick up our own, we pick up our own, but we challenge ourselves to find 10 things that we didn't leave 10 pieces of, and just leave it better than we found it. And so that to me is what leaving well is, leaving the space better than we found it. That is at our best. Sometimes all we can do is.
Get on that plane with our integrity intact. Sometimes all we can do is grab the people that we need to, and then burn that place down. But how do we get on that train, that plane feeling as complete? As possible having left it better than we found it. So that's always the North Star that I send to my clients.
They're like, they're, you know, got this really big transition. I'm not sure if I wanted this and I want this. And if you don't solve for what is happening in your world right here, right now, It's going to follow you wherever it is that you go, whatever train you get on. So this is your opportunity to leave well and also leave this aspect behind as you step into the next because it's going to come with you either way.
I love that so much. And Jerry Jones, who wrote the original blog post on Leaving Well from an expat's perspective, uh, says that troubles fly with you, and sometimes multiply. So, not only will they fly, but they'll multiply. And so Leaving Well does have that element of... leaving behind some of the things that you need to for yourself.
So I'm really glad that you brought that up. Thank you so much for all of your wisdom and perspective and ability to grab things that all of us experience and put meaning around it so that we can let it settle and sit with us. I appreciate you. I appreciate you deeply. I appreciate how you move in the world.
I appreciate your care. I appreciate your ever willingness to dig a little bit deeper and see what else is here. I appreciate your maven qualities of connecting people to people, people to ideas, ideas to ideas. It's an honor to be here. Thank you, my friend. To learn more about Leaving Well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace, visit NaomiHattaway.com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide, to shift culture and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.