72: Minda Harts on Trust in the Workplace and Workplace Transitions
Minda Harts is a celebrated author and influential speaker, best known for her bestsellers "The Memo," "Right Within," and the YA book "You Are More Than Magic." She is a respected voice in advancing women of color, self-advocacy, and restoring trust at work. Minda frequently speaks at major conferences and companies, including Nike, Google, Disney, Best Buy, Dreamforce, and the Aspen Ideas Festival.
As an NYU assistant professor, Minda shapes future leaders and empowers professionals. Honored by LinkedIn as the #1 Top Voice for Equity in the Workplace in 2020 and by Business Insider as one of the top 100 People Transforming Business in 2022. Minda is currently working on a new book with Flatiron Books, focusing on the crucial topic of restoring trust in the workplace.
Main quote:
“Each and every one of us, our voices are our legacy. And the moment that we allow people to shut our voices down, even ourselves, then that's impeding upon our legacy.”
Additional Quotes:
“When it comes to trust in the workplace, we don't necessarily put a high value stake on it. In our romantic and platonic relationships, trust is everything. So why wouldn't we want that same character trait inside the workplace with our colleagues, with our managers, with our leadership. Because you can't have equity in the workplace without trust.”
“You belong in every room, but not every room deserves to have you.”
“Leaving well is freedom. Definition wise it’s one no longer feeling confined and I want us all to be free. I want us all to be able to experience our lives inside and outside the workplace, the way that we were created to experience them, which I feel is joy, peace and equity.”
To purchase Minda’s books:
Talk To Me Nice: Amazon | Bookshop
Right Within: Amazon | Bookshop
You Are More Than Magic: Amazon | Bookshop
To connect with Minda:
Take the Transition Readiness assessment
To learn more about Leaving Well
This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley
Transcript:
I have been a fan and a follower of Minda Hartz's work for quite some time. Minda is an author of many books, one of which is about to become a movie, and she's also releasing later in 2025 a new book called Talk to Me Nice. I'm excited to bring you this conversation with Minda because it is short and actionable and to the point.
Minda talks about trust, and one of the things that I am excited for you to learn about, and then to take it into your spaces, is the fact that trust is everything. It's the bedrock. It's the foundation. Of all of our relationships, except in the workplace. She also talks about the erosion of or absence of trust and how to navigate that, especially if you don't think that you're a decision maker or that you hold any power.
I'm not going to say anything more about this episode. I'm excited for you to hear it. Enjoy. Minda Hartz is a celebrated author and influential speaker, best known for her bestsellers, The Memo, Right Within, and the young adult book, You Are More Than Magic. She has a respected voice in advancing women of color, self advocacy, and restoring trust at work, which I'm so excited to talk more about today.
Minda frequently speaks at major conferences and companies, including Nike, Google, Disney, Best Buy, Dreamforce, and the Aspen Ideas Festival. As an NYU assistant professor, Minda also shapes future leaders and empowers professionals. Honored by LinkedIn as the number one top voice for equity in the workplace in 2020 and by Business Insider as one of the top 100 people transforming business in 2022.
Minda is currently working on a new book with Flatiron Books, focusing on the crucial topic of restoring trust in the workplace. Minda, I'm excited to have this conversation and I would love to dive right into that topic of trust. It's something that you talk about being a necessity in the workplace and I'd love for you to share your beliefs on how important this is and why trust rises to the top for you.
Yeah. Well, thank you again for having me honored to be here. And, you know, trust is so important because it's one of those things that it's not new, right? It's been around probably since the dinosaurs in some regard, right? But I think that as individuals, when it comes to trust in the workplace, we don't necessarily put a high value stake on it, right?
In our romantic and platonic relationships, trust is everything, right? So why wouldn't we want that same? Character trait inside the workplace with our colleagues, with our managers, with our leadership, because you can't have equity in the workplace without trust. And so, as I was going on my journeys and doing my talks, I'm like, you know what, at the heart of all these issues, it's not necessarily race, gender, identity, ableism, ages, you know, ages and whatever the, the intersection might be, it's actually the erosion of trust or trust that was never created.
And so we got to get to the root of the issue and that is. Restoring trust in a workplace that hasn't always valued it. Yeah, I love that. You just said that it could be either the erosion of trust or trust. That's never been there in the 1st place. And I'm curious around. You know, someone who's not a decision maker or doesn't think they are, or someone who doesn't have power in the workplace or doesn't think they do, how does someone lean into the erosion of trust, especially if that comes from a past workplace experience?
How do you navigate that as a person when you're going into a new team? That's a great question because, you know, part of it is oftentimes we don't even know that we could ask for trust or that trust is even an option, right? Because it hasn't been there or, you know, we're fearful, uh, and there's no psychological safety and it, let's be honest, you can't just come to your manager or colleague and say, hey, I don't trust you for X, Y, and Z, right?
One of the things that I started to think about is what is the language that each of us needs to be speaking and trust is a global language rather you're in Tennessee or Japan. Your trust is important to you, right? And so for me, as an individual contributor in the workplace or as an employee or a colleague, I am most productive when I know trust is there, when I can work alongside my peers and know that I don't have to worry about backstabbing or gossip, that we could be transparent, right?
That we could follow up on the things that we say we're going to do, or if we can't do them, then we're acknowledging that, hey, here's the reasons why, right? And so I started to think about What are the languages that each of us needs to be speaking in the workplace so that we get to trust? So if you are an employee that has not been getting trust with your manager, how do you have a conversation saying, Hey, you know what?
I know that you value me as a member on this team, but something that I need from you and I hope that we can partner in this way is more transparency, right? Or more feedback. I noticed that we've haven't had a one on one in the last two months. It's really important for us to have face time. Can we make sure that we hold this time sacred on the calendar?
Those are the sorts of things that we, it's not what you say, but how you say that, right? So we know that we may not trust that our manager has our best interests at mind, but what are we going to do to help essentially manage up to say, these are the things that are important to me. Lastly, I'll say, you know, my grandmother used to say, close mouths don't get fed.
So part of it. Is on us to say, here's what I need to do my best work. Can you partner on me with that? I love that because it seems so simple because it is literally reframing it. Like you said, do not go to your boss and say, I don't feel like you trust me or I don't feel like I trust you. But thinking about it from that, like, these are the things that are important to me.
And I feel like when you, when you started out, you said. Trust is so important in our friendships and in our romantic relationships, but why would we not have it in the workplace? And I think sometimes it's because we try so hard to separate any type of work relationship becoming one of those two things, romantic or friendship, that then we also sever the trust bond that we could have.
And so just by saying, here's the stuff that's important to me, seems like it would go so far. I love that you gave that super practical way of doing it. Thank you. And it's just like the reframing because we know what it's like to have a low trust environment, right? And we know what it feels like in our personal lives when it's high trust.
And because we spend what I think there's a study that says 90, 000 hours of our life will be in the workplace if we trauma bond over things that happen in the workplace, why can't we bond over stress? Right, right. So then I think about the person who's listening who's the manager and they're freaking out right now because you just said that they're should come to them and say, here's what it's important to me.
How are they going to manage? Maybe they've got 20 people that report to them. What would you say is, is a way that they could be proactive about instilling trust with their folks so that they aren't waiting for their people to come to them or expecting or assuming that they know how. Right. Um, and I realized that, um, as a manager myself in my entrepreneurship life and in my former nine to five life, I, Understand that as a manager, we have so many things going on during the day.
We're just trying to keep the ship moving forward. So you're not always thinking about every single person and what they need. Right. And part of this new book that I'm super excited about is again, how do we speak each other's language? If I'm a manager and I'm like, okay, what's going on with Minda at work right now, I'm going to have a conversation with her and say, Hey.
I really value you as a team member here. But what do you need from me to do your best work on this team? Right, those simple yet profound questions and then we get to open up and unpack what it is I need. And then I have space to say, well, you know, I actually love it when you provide feedback on my projects, right?
That's when I get the most like, Rah, rah from, from you. And if I could get a little bit more of that, that would help me even more with my productivity. And as a manager, now I know, Oh, would it get the best out of Minda? Here are a couple of languages. Rooted in trust that I need to be speaking and maybe I can't speak every single one of her languages But if I'm at least speaking one or two, right do a lingo ain't got nothing on me, right because now I know That okay I could speak at least one language that each one of my team members need right if that's feedback if that's acknowledgement if that's Transparency, how can I lean into these conversations a little bit more because it's not just About me or quote unquote, giving them what they want.
It's about productivity and productivity and retention is good for the bottom line. So we want to create a climate where people can say, Hey, here's what I need. And on the flip side, as a manager, because I think sometimes we don't think about what, what languages our managers need. If I know that in order to get the best out of my manager, they need some transparency for me.
We're working remotely this week. We haven't talked a week. Do you need me to ping you, you know, once a week and give you just an email, um, update on what I've been working on. Right. Because I know you need that for your trust language. Doesn't mean you get to micromanage me, right. But it means that this is what you value.
And I think if we all understand what we value in the workplace, it, as it relates to the bottom line, then it's good for business. I agree. I agree. I also think about when you were talking about the different trust languages, which I love so much and I can't wait for your new book to come out. I think about my friendships and I know how they each want me to communicate with them or how they communicate best.
So for one, it might be a text message. For one, it might be a picking up the phone and a phone call. For one, it might be mailing a letter or a card to their mailbox. And so it doesn't seem like it's that far of a reach to shift that to the folks that report to you. Figure out, like you said, the one thing that really makes them tick.
And I also think a lot about what motivates us in the workplace. Some people are motivated by money. Some are motivated by being able to co author, you know, a one pager on the data from the last quarters of work, or, you know, another one might be to be able to present at the next team meeting. And it doesn't take that much, like you said, to figure out what those are.
I even love the idea of, uh, I always preach about stay interviews and the importance of having really intentional meetings with your folks that report to you. Your stay interviews don't have to be any more complicated than just asking those questions. How do you do your best work? What can I do, um, to better support you?
I love that. Yeah, I mean, it's the simple yet profound things that go a long way, because I don't know about you, but I think back to some of my workplace. Managers and situations and if somebody would just ask me one question. What do you need to do your best work here? Huge Stayed a little longer Put in a little more, you know effort because somebody cares about my well being.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely Kind of on that same topic of what you were just talking about with staying a little bit longer? Um, in my work and in the leaving, well, um, kind of framework, it's that we are able to leave a place, a project or a thing with intention and joy, but sometimes it's not possible, um, to do that.
Um, especially when it's toxic. When there's been overt racism or not overt, um, or when there's been trauma. And in the book, right, within you share strategies. for women of color to speak up during racialized moments with managers and clients to work through past triggers, reframe past disappointments into opportunities.
Can you share some tidbits from that book or even from the memo? Cause there's some correlations there that might help the person listening who's in that situation. Yeah. You know, I'm glad that you framed it that way because Sometimes we get advanced degrees and trying to make everything work, and it's just, this is not the place, right?
I could give you all the trust languages and still that person on the other end is never going to get it, right? And that's the reality. But part of it is, how do we show up for ourselves? There's another statistic, they say over 80 percent of people end up leaving their current jobs, never having had a conversation about what was the problem.
Right. And if you love what you do, you're good at what you do. Um, and you want to stay, but it's bad characters in play. What would it look like to center the conversation around your needs, right? And root them in fact, because I think we owe it to ourselves going, you know, in our certifications. You know, our trainings, degrees, whatever have you, life experiences have gotten us to this point, and if we don't show up for ourself, or at least, number one, acknowledge, right, that this is a situation that is either serving me or it's not serving me anymore, and next, I'm going to give myself permission to either have a conversation, or I'm going to give myself permission to start looking somewhere else, or start my own thing, but I think many of us have been socialized to say, well, this is the Success is I have a steady paycheck, right?
Um, this is what everyone else expects of me. And I think part of being right within is first checking in with ourself, acknowledging, is this an environment that my future self would be thanking me for to stay in? And also to part of right within is saying, I can't control what the other person says or acknowledges, but I can decide to acknowledge the feelings that I'm feeling.
And I think that's part of Living well, right? Being well is saying, okay, I don't have to pretend that so and so keeps saying this to me every time in an email or in a message, and I think part of our right is to know that we're good enough to deserve humanity, dignity, equity, and respect in the workplace, and that's part of our well being, because when we don't talk about those things, then it's impeding upon and betraying ourselves in some degree.
Yeah, another thing I, I often will tell folks that I work with and organizations that I work with is that the, the final exit interview that HR has, uh, or asks for is for their benefit. It's not for yours. Um, it is to make sure that they have risk mitigation in place, that they know something beforehand before it comes out later.
And so I always encourage folks to, um, the exit interview is not necessarily the time, um, Or the place, in my opinion, to try and have some of those wrongs be righted or to be able to share about the trauma that you had at work because they really don't care, especially at that point. I'd like to shift a little bit to the memo, which you have some exciting things happening around the memo.
In the book, you deliver really, really straight talk about how to navigate office politics and money. And also what I found so incredible about it is also talking about how we can each make change in the system or for ourselves. And it's now a movie, which we're so excited about. What's the biggest takeaway that you want readers or viewers of the movie soon to be left with?
Yeah, I think that part of it is again. Um, the workplace doesn't have to be traumatic, right? I, and I think many of us experienced traumatic workplaces and that's not how it should be, right? We should be able to enter into a workplace where there is psychological safety, no fear of retribution, because we know that some of our colleagues get to show up and advocate every And there's never an issue.
But then some of us who are the only or one of few, whenever we say anything that might be uncomfortable for other people, then it's a problem. We're a problem, right? And so we start to question if we belong here. And the one biggest takeaway, I think, from all of my work that I hope that people would know and just really marinate on is that.
You belong in every room, but not every room deserves to have you, and that is back to our self worth, our self agency, and knowing that we have choices. I think sometimes, just because you've been at a place for 10 years or 10 months doesn't mean that you have to stay there. It could be another department, it could be leaning on your mentors or sponsors, but just know that you have choices.
And I think that some of us just need to be reminded that we are the asset. They hired you for a reason. And if it's not at this place There's another table waiting for you that will honor you, or there's a table waiting for you to build it yourself. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that so much. What, what would you say, this is not a question I prepped you for, but what would you say around each of us remembering our true innate value?
You just mentioned worth. I also wonder if there's anything that you'd like to share about our legacy and how we create or don't create that based on the decisions we make about the workplace. Yeah, absolutely. Um, one of my favorite words in the dictionary is the word courage and one definition is the ability to do something that frightens one.
It's hard to show up and speak up. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that it's easy and that it's always going to go according to plan, right? But our voice is tied to somebody else's freedom. And you have to think about the people that came before us in the workplace. Allowing many of us to do jobs that 50 years ago, we would never be hired to do right?
40 years ago, 20 years ago, five years ago for some, you know, it's due to somebody speaking up, showing up and saying, you know what, I'm going to say this thing. I'm going to ask for this thing. I'm going to create this thing so that the next person joining me or sitting next to me or in the future has some agency.
And oftentimes we go into these rooms alone, but knowing that we do We're not doing this just for us. We're not asking for more salary, or we're not asking for there to be more diversity on the About Us pages for us. Yes, we can benefit from that, but somebody benefits from our voice, and that's where our legacy lives, right?
Our voice is tied to somebody else's freedom, and that's where our leadership legacy is, because we may not know their names. Who said the thing or did the thing so that we could get what we have right now, but we honor them by saying there's somebody else that hasn't even been born yet that if I don't say this thing, they're not going to experience the workplace the way they should.
And I think when we think about that, you don't have to be in the C suite. You don't have to be the most tenured each and every one of us. Our voices are our legacy in the moment that we allow people to shut those down, even ourselves, then that's impeding upon our legacy. I got goosebumps when you said that about we may not know their names because I think that's both forwards and backwards.
The people that are coming after us may not remember our names. Our names may not be attached to the things that we help to change or the things that we help to pivot. And we have to do it anyway. I'm so glad you said that. My last question for you is. To ask what leaving well means to you, but I also want to make sure that there's space for anything that you may not have shared or that I didn't ask you about.
Yes, I love this question so much. Well, number one, if you're looking for some more resources, uh, in regards to trust, I have a LinkedIn learning course. That you can, it takes less than 25 minutes to go through the whole entire course, and it'll help you think about some of those, you know, how do you say it this way, and then, you know, um, later in 2025, uh, my new book will be coming out, so stay connected, but living well is freedom, really, and freedom, again, definition wise, is one, is no longer feeling confined, and I want us all to be free, I want us all to be an experience, Our lives, um, inside and outside the workplace, the way that we were created to, to experience them, which I, I feel is joy, peace.
And, um, and equity. And so, um, again, it goes back to our voices. Everything is tied to our voices and the moment that we stop using them, then nobody's free. Thank you so much, Minda. This is great. Uh, it's always great to hear your voice and your impact in this space. And I really appreciate not only all that you do, uh, from the books that you put out, but the LinkedIn learning course, the way that you show up on social media and all that you are about, I just appreciate you.
Well, thank you for seeing me, and I appreciate you, too. Thank you for using your voice in this way to help each of us live a little bit better, right? Yeah. Thank you, Minda. If you are an organizational leader, board member, or a curious staff member, take the Leaving Well Assessment to discover your organization's transition readiness archetype.
It's quick and easy, and you can find it at naomihataway. com forward slash assessment. It's Naomi, N A O M I. H A T T A W A Y dot com forward slash assessment. To learn more about Leaving Well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace, you can also see that information on my website.
It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide. To shift culture and to create transformation until next time. I'm your host, Naomi Hadaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Wealth, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.