65: Kamilah Martin on Independent Consulting and Workplace Transitions
Kamilah specializes in interim solutions, serving as a successful interim executive to nonprofit organizations with budgets of $10+ million. She is a nonprofit executive consultant with two decades of experience in the areas of organizational and relationship effectiveness; change management; interim leadership solutions; and program design/project management, both domestically and internationally with NGOs and Foundations focused on advancing humanitarian and conservation/environmental efforts. She is currently Founder & CEO of Katalyst Consulting Group.
Her firm works selectively with nonprofit organizations who are serious about advancing equity. She also recently served in a senior leadership role with the Jane Goodall Institute where she led the U.S. operations of the organization’s global humanitarian program and led efforts to grow programmatic scale and impact with a focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion; identified and built partnerships to amplify underrepresented voices in the space of conservation and youth activism; diversified the funding portfolio; and provided strategic direction to a high-performing remote team. Kamilah has strategically and successfully managed within complex global organizations to repair and strengthen critical board, cross-department, and founder relationships and interests resulting in heightened trust, engagement, and collaboration.
Kamilah has successfully led and stabilized internal teams during several CEO and Executive Director transitions and is known for her innate ability to heal fractured teams and lead from a space of humanity. Specializing in supporting nonprofits and foundations, she also has experience working with and leading projects with DoSomething.org, New York Cares, National Urban Fellows, Los Angeles Area Chamber of Commerce’s Southern California Leadership Network, Thomas J. Watson Foundation, and Geraldine R. Dodge Foundation.
Kamilah was a World Economic Forum US Stakeholder Council Member for the Trillion Tree Initiative, an NGO Representative to the United Nations, an NYU Public Service Leadership Fellow, a National Urban Fellow, and a National Wildlife Federation Leadership Fellow. She holds a Master’s Degree in Public Administration (City University of New York, Baruch College) and a Bachelor of Science in Business Management (University of Maryland, College Park).
She is also a mother to two young children, a photographer and, through Katalyst, leads executive women’s leadership retreats and a nonprofit consulting mastermind community centering the needs of Black and other women of color.
Main quote:
I think the biggest soapbox that I'm on these days is understanding that we can operate outside of the ways we've done business and that it's okay, that it's fun. You get to be an innovator of creating this new pathway of working in this ecosystem that's outside of the way that we think it's supposed to be and that it's always been done.
Additional Quotes:
Find or build your community. I don't care who that is. I don't care if it's a handful of friends that are doing the same thing. I don't care if you're paying for a membership. I don't care if it's your church group. You need to have people around you that are going to be understanding of where you are, that are on the journey with you, that have been there and done that. That's make or break for the speed at which you can succeed in your consulting practice.
To connect with Kamilah:
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This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
Transcript:
Kamilah, in this conversation you're about to hear, really dives into taking back the word or the concept of what it means to be a coach. We start out the conversation there and it gets a little juicy, if you ask me. She also gives some really encouraging information and practical steps for how you can budget today for consultant support that you might need tomorrow or in the future.
She also talks about the power of when your staff knows that it's a budget line item to have consultant or contractor support, how much better that can be when the consultant joins your team. She also talks about emergency funding for contract support, which if you are in a nonprofit, you know how important this is.
If you don't already have a budgeted, it's really hard to find the funds. So we talk a little bit about how to get emergency funding if you haven't been proactive. And then we talk about capacity and weakness and whether you can hold them in the same hand. I enjoyed my conversation with Camilla and I'm excited for you to hear it.
Camilla Martin specializes in interim solutions, serving as a successful interim executive to nonprofit organizations with budgets of 10 million plus. She is a nonprofit executive consultant with two decades of experience in the areas of organizational and relationship effectiveness, change management, Interim leadership solutions and program design and project management, both domestically and internationally with NGOs and foundations focused on advancing humanitarian and conservation and environmental efforts.
Camilla is currently the founder and CEO of Catalyst Consulting Group. I'm so glad to have this conversation today. There's a lot that we have in common and I'm excited to bring this to the listeners. I would love if you would first start by sharing a high level definition or, or on the ground definition of what Catalyst offers and what it offers to the nonprofit sector.
Sure, thank you. So Catalyst started, um, as part of the Great Resignation. So I'll say that to start. Um, and so I had no idea what it was going to be when I first started. I started just consulting and it turned into, um, just a beautiful space really that supports black and brown women in the non profit space, particularly as independent consultants.
So, um, the primary, um, Part of our our company is to support black and brown women who are transitioning from their nine to five executive roles into independent consulting. So we support them during that journey. I say typically years zero to five of that transition supporting from when you're coming as deer in the headlights.
You know, to sort of helping you create a foundation, um, and a solid footing for growing a business, you know, folks who don't really know what that means. Um, and then we also run retreats kind of in the same vein of supporting black and brown women, just pouring into us and making sure that we have sort of spaces that we can refill and replenish around other like minded women who are, you know, Really tired and burnt out and just kind of wanting to be in a community of support.
So the business has really just turned into the business of liberation, you know, for lack of a better way of putting it. Um, and I'm just really proud and excited of what's what's happened over the past few years. Yeah, it's so exciting to watch you grow in the process of growing and building this business.
Can you talk a little bit about the quiz that you offer so that listeners might find themselves in need of that and know what to look for? Absolutely. Yeah. So this, this just dropped, I would say a week ago. Um, so basically whenever, so I'm very active on LinkedIn and sharing my story, sharing my journey.
And the more that I talked about it, the more A lot of black and brown women literally from all over the world started reaching out to me saying this resonates. You know, how are you doing it? I want to be a consultant. I'm thinking about it. I don't know what to do. And so I was having the same conversations with people and I was just like, let me just jot these ideas down and create, you know, just something to sort of help people navigate that space of where am I right now?
What are some immediate next steps that I should do? So the quiz is like a two minute quiz, basically just asking about six or seven questions. For you to sort of understand kind of three areas where you are, where you fall kind of in the in the range in the scope of Are you ready for consulting just again from my personal experience and just anecdotal experience from the people and women that I've supported over the years.
And then again, it gives you depending on how you how you fall in the quiz, it gives you some very specific resources. Very specific steps. I think people just want to know what to do, and I'm not technically a coach. I'm not certified as a coach, but I think again, just sort of pulling my experiences over the years, been able to put together what I think, you know, can kind of help you think about what your next step should be.
I love that you said that about not being technically a coach because you're not certified. I'm the same. I'm not certified, but I do think that we need to maybe take back the word and the concept of coach because I think anytime you're putting your experience and curating the experiences of others to be able to walk alongside someone else.
That's, that's really, you know, what a coach does. So I'm with you, uh, not, but I think we are both coaches. I guess that's true. And I, I was, I always had an aversion to the word, I think because I had this connotation of what it meant and you had to have these, you know, the certification and kind of go through this process.
And I think someone, someone shared the word advisor or the word guide, I think guide wasn't it? And I was like, I think I'm a guide, you know, I'm not a certified coach by the definition, but I do have a heck of a lot of experience and have learned a lot along the way. Okay. And. Um, you know, I'm always happy to sort of happy to share that and people take what they can and kind of disregard what doesn't apply.
Um, but I, I don't like the pressure I think that comes with the term coach, um, but I, I'm a guide. I think I like being thought of as a guide. Well, and I think about too, if someone has had the experience of, of a certified coach, they might have a different experience with me if I call myself a coach, or they might expect the same thing.
And so I think a lot of times it's just about normalizing. What do I do? And I think you're right about the word advisor. I would see myself more as an advisor because I'm bringing my expertise and my ideas and suggestions to you. And like you said, what you want to do with them is your business. Um, yeah.
So I'm, I appreciate that you said that. So I would love to talk about something that comes up a lot for my clients and for the nonprofits that I'm involved with, which is that boards of directors or executives haven't yet Maybe assumed, acknowledged, or accepted the importance of the support that contractors and consultants can bring to their leadership.
And so I'd love if you could share either some common objections that you also hear, or maybe the way that you address those objections when you think about the women that are in your community, because it's so helpful to bring in consultants to organizations. So I'd love if you could share a little bit.
Yeah, I think it will a Yes, it's incredibly helpful. And I think the root of the issue is fear of change and some sort of way. And I think this is just a human nature thing. Like we get stuck in the way that things have been done. And we're used to doing that. And it takes people to sort of turn things on their head or innovate or to bring alternative ideas to the table.
And you have to be, you know, have the have the headspace and wherewithal to be able to say, Okay, this is something that I'm willing to try. And I think one of the biggest challenges is People overestimate or people overestimate how challenging they think it's going to be, you know, they think that I'm, I'm going to have to, you know, interview 20 people.
It's going to take so much time. And there are so many resources out here now where it, it actually can make your life a hell of a lot easier, you know, and that's, That's the story that I tell because when I've been in leadership roles and we've taken in consultants, first of all, we've, we've had those positions budgeted, so it makes it easier if you're not having to fight to try and get the money for it.
And you have your networks, you have different, again, agencies, people like, you know, organizations like Catalyst that have these built in. Communities of consultants that you can just tap into and very, very easily get almost handpicked referrals where you can just sort of vet, you know, a few at a time, um, event.
And then you can also do the bigger, more complicated thing of going through a larger, a larger type of company or putting your RFP out there, which we can have a whole other conversation about RFP, um, to see what you get back. But I think the biggest objection is people overestimate how hard they think it's going to be.
Okay. And it's, it's, you know, having served on both sides, like it does not have to be that challenging and I would argue can can make your life a lot easier very quickly, sort of, if you get out of your own way about what you think it's supposed to look like. I agree with you. And I also think that when you're talking about it doesn't have to be as hard as we make it.
You can also write a contract with that consultant so that it's easier. easy ish to get out of if it's not a good fit. You know, I think that we also, um, try to make everything a solid decision that we'll never stray from. And, and if we embed the idea of experimentation into the work, maybe one consultant will be great for a period of time.
I often say that with my work, I'm not the end all be all. You need my services for a time and then you might need to bring in someone else. One of the things that I think you hit on that's so important is the responsibility to intentionally budget for that support. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit, like, it comes to my mind that if you're applying for grant funding, make sure that you include that in your budget, your proposed budget.
Are there other ways that if someone hasn't already planned for it that they can navigate or prioritize? Yes, and I do want to, you know, underscore what you said about being intentional because I think people, you know, don't think about the support that they might need it throughout the year and the way budgeting works is you decide what you need and then you get the money for it, right?
I think in a, in a, in an ideal world, that's the way it's supposed to work. So if you're wanting to be proactive and intentional about it. Supporting your team potentially later on in the year, then, you know, earmark some, some consulting dollars and it doesn't have to be a consultant line item, you know, like it can be R and D support.
It can be, I don't know, programmatic support, like it. If that's the worry and the flag that you think is going to prevent you from being able to get the funding, there are ways to ethically, I think, um, you know, show that this support is for direct program services or supporting the team internally or something like that.
Um, and then your second question, which I think I guess completely forgot about because I wanted to stick. What was your actual question? Um, I think the actual question was what if someone what if you're on the Other end of it. And you can't intentionally plan, but you find yourself needing support from a consultant.
Are there ways that you could encourage the person who's listening? And maybe it's a board member who needs to be on the side of approving and supporting the Ed's desire for this. Yeah. So I'd say a couple things. Um, Depending on, you know, where you sit in sort of the nonprofit equation, like if you're in the foundation side or have relationships with foundations, very often the director, the presidents or heads of those foundations have discretionary funds that if you have a good relationship with them, you can tap into that and just say, we have this very specific, you know, unexpected need, uh, capacity need and are wondering if we could get some additional support.
So that's one avenue. Again, if you have a close relationship with your program officers or with the foundations, it's. Or even private donors, like if you have relationships like this is a specific need that we have, can you support this? The other thing that I'll say is every year, you know, as you're doing your budgeting, people are going to be over and under, right?
And I think that's where sort of internal relationships come into play. Where if there are teams that are under budget, and I've seen this like every year at the end of the budget cycle, people are scrambling to try and figure out how to spend, you know, funds that they might have had in their budget that they didn't get to spend.
And I think there's an opportunity to have a conversation about redeveloping or redeploying what that what that funding block and that funding line item can be if there's another member on your team that needs some consulting support, you may not need it. But the money doesn't have to go to waste. It doesn't have to be, you know, you don't have to be worried that the donor is going to be concerned that you didn't spend it, but you can reallocate it potentially to other team members who might need it.
So that would, those would be my two immediate recommendations, assuming that the money is there or you have the relationships for how to make an additional sort of ask. Yeah, I love that you said that about looking inside of your teams because that also would be a really powerful leadership conversation to be had around bringing your teams into the budgeting process.
So often our managers and below aren't part of the budget process, and that would be really powerful. You also talked about capacity, and I'm curious about your thoughts because I think myself and others probably have this fear that bringing someone in like a third party consultant shows weakness or shows an inability of the team that we've brought on to do the work.
Um, and I'd love to hear just your thoughts, uh, and I'll share some of mine a little bit also, but how does, how do we get over that hump of folks thinking that bringing in a consultant, it doesn't have to mean that we're weak or that we don't have the right folks in those seats. So first of all, I think that is a personal development conversation because a lot of it boils down to ego, honestly, and I think a lot of times it's leaders.
You got to move that steps aside or you have to work through it within yourself. Are you going to keep running up against those hurdles in various scenarios? Like your ego is going to show up. And I think my style of leadership, it is actually a sign of strength. You know, it is actually completely the opposite.
When you see that there is a need and you're figuring out how to solve that problem for that. That need and for your people. And so I think the people that are doing the work are going to recognize it as a strength. If you're feeling like it's a weakness, that's internal stuff that really you have to work through.
I don't, I don't really know any other way to say it. Like if your teams need support, it's your job as a leader to figure out how to support. And if you're sort of spinning your wheels and hemming and hawing and having sort of these internal dialogues that I'm not, this, this, this is a sign of weakness.
You got to work that out because your teams are suffering. Because of your ego, and I think, yeah, I totally agree with you. And sometimes the work that I've brought in to do is to help identify which things need to stop. So teams have capacity for the next thing. I think that would be the next thing I'd love to talk with you about is just have a conversation on some of the unique or innovative or really thoughtful.
Opportunities that you've seen, maybe in your own community or the things that have come your way with jobs that are needed, where consultants can really play a big part in organizations. Do you have, I don't know, three or four examples of interesting opportunities for consultants? Yeah, I mean, I would say the initial thing I'll say is whenever you get a new new funding to do a new project, basically, and everyone's already stretched on what it is that they're already doing.
So I think what a lot of times we see is again, organizations and leaders try to pile on, they're scrambling, they want to make the donor happy. But there's a different conversation, like you said, that needs to be had initially, whether it's What can we pause or sunset that doesn't need to happen so that we can take on this new work?
Or how can we make sure we beef up our capacity so that we have pieces that are farmed out to other folks who can have certain pieces of the work? They don't have to have ownership over everything. Although I have seen that done as well. When you get new funding in, bring someone to completely manage that entire process.
And I've seen that work done. actually really, really well because you're getting external insight, right? Like you're getting people who aren't completely wed to the way things have been done and they can come in and provide sort of some innovative suggestions and strategies and opportunities that oftentimes improves the way that we're working overall.
So that's one example. I mean, my example, you know, The way I serve is as an interim executive and this, I think this is a new ish area, you know, I don't know that I had really, I didn't know about it when I first started with it, actually, to be honest with you, I was kind of just pulled into it, um, but basically when you're thinking about transition and depending on, no matter what side you're on, like you can be the person leaving and propose a plan.
For how that succession will go by bringing on an interim, or if you're just going to resign, then the organization, the senior leadership team in the board can be intentional and proactive about making sure that they're bringing in someone who has emotional intelligence, whose background is really people, people management to streamline and stabilize the process.
That, uh, that transition period so that you're maintaining board confidence or maintaining donor confidence. So that's one way of you know, obviously that I see it. There's a lot of turnover and development roles. And I think what I've seen is that leaves a lot of the internal teams floundering because they're the bread and butter and they keep the lights on for the organization.
So having someone support in various development roles that you can parcel out. For a consultant, whether it's just doing the donor research, not necessarily the relationships piece because that has to be consistent, but the back end stuff of actually writing the grants of doing the research for donor prospecting, like those kinds of things you can take off of, you can take the weight off of your team and invite someone with just a very specific, specific goal and a specific skill set and expertise to handle those things for you.
So I think that's, that's the conversation of like, what are things that. need to be sort of maintained and sustained relationship wise. Perhaps not a consultant, but what are the little projects that we can kind of free up time from the people who are actually doing the other kind of work? It's a new model.
It really is a new model, Naomi, when you think about, you don't have to have one person doing all of the things. You can have The people who are in house doing the important relationship kind of consistent things and you can parcel off the projects to people who actually only want to do projects, right?
Like that's what they enjoy. Yes. That's why they do this. They enjoy the, the, the short term finite and knowing what my role is getting in and getting out so that you, it's, it's, we have to rethink the model, honestly, because there are, there are several buckets of talent. That want to be in certain areas and that can all really work together.
And I don't think we're having that conversation yet. We are, we are. And hopefully this conversation will help others have the conversation. When you were talking, I was also thinking about when you were talking about from the development side of things, there's so many opportunities to just have someone come in for a short term to create your donor library, to create your grants library, pull all of the information from the last Thank you.
Five years of grants that you've written, pull it together into a library so that you can in the future as your full time development team can just go grab what you need. I also think about helping with a new program that's, that's been funded, having someone come in and just sit quietly almost in meetings to develop processes, um, to then work with the team.
So then you have a knowledge transfer database already built for how they, how you're going to run this program. There's so many different ways. And I'll say to one of your earlier questions about what are some of the hurdles, I think people don't even realize that this is an option. You know what I mean?
And I think like I had a conversation recently with someone, I think about an interim role and they were like, I didn't even know that we could do this or that this existed. So I think part of it is really just educating people, particularly now. And particularly women of color who are leaving the sec, not the sector, but leaving their roles because they, there aren't, they aren't interested in senior leadership as much anymore.
Like there are articles and research that are coming out almost daily around these sorts of trends. And instead of losing these people completely in the sector, which is a, like a huge, huge, huge issue that we will be facing soon, if we're not already there, recognize that there are again, new ways of incorporating this talent.
It's a win, win, win. I always say it's a win, win, win. It's a win for the organization. It's a win for the teams. It's a win for the people who want to experiment with a different kind of working style. And I think if you know that, if you know that there are resources that can support you, if you know that there are people that can do literally anything that you need to have done, there are people out there and it's, it's easier than ever for you to find who those people are.
So like, it's, it's just about being innovative, getting out of your way, Stopping with the supposed to is like this is the way work is supposed to look. This is the way we're supposed to feel like it's those who are able to think outside of that box are going to be the ones I think in 10 years, perhaps that we're going to see doing the innovation and and and sticking around because There's a shift.
There is a shift. There's a shift. I agree with you 100%. And I think for those of you that are listening, if you're interested in learning more about interim executive leadership, there's an episode in season two that you can go back and listen to. But I'd like for you, Camilla, to talk a little bit about from the consultant or talk to the consultant, because as you were talking about all of the things that consultants can do, one thing I find, and I do it myself, is I have served an organization or a team, and it's a good relationship.
Yep. we exited the project well, they'll then come back to me for something else. I loved the team. I loved working with them. And so I'll say yes, maybe to things that I'm not as equipped to do because of the relationship that is just continuing. So I'd love for you to speak a little bit to, um, maybe what Catalyst can offer in terms of like the network of knowing other consultants, um, maybe about the power of sharing referrals, um, and sharing connections to folks.
Because I think that's important too. Yeah, and so one of the things in the quiz that you mentioned earlier is to build your community, find or build your community. I don't care who that is. I don't care if it's a handful of friends that are doing the same thing. I don't care if you're paying for a membership.
I don't care if it's your church group. Like, you need to have the people around you that are going to be understanding of where you are, that are on the journey with you, that have been there and done that. That is a, that's a make or break. For the speed at which you can kind of succeed in your consulting practice.
Anecdotally from my kind of just observations, right? there's several consultant communities out there that exist. Some are free, some are not. I'm just going to rattle off a few that I know. So constellation is a group of consultants, um, primarily for black and brown consultants. They are, they're more of a directory.
So they're. Expertise and what they're building is for you to be listed in a directory for organizations to be able to find you when they need support. So it's, you know, searchable database. There's consultants for good. They have a paid membership. Similarly, they have a directory as well. Um, and that's open to anybody.
There's Jess Campbell's group. I don't know the name of the group, um, but they have a consultant group where you can kind of get on their Slack channel and that's a paid membership. Um, and folks are just sort of supporting each other and asking questions. There's the Catalyst group again, just the group that I have for Black and Brown women, primarily director and executive level, um, We're like a full humanity community.
Like we have coaches and therapists that come in as, as well as the business of building your business kind of pop up sessions. We kind of come together monthly as a community just to talk about where each other is and what each other needs and just sort of whatever's on our mind. Um, as well as a platform where we're sharing stuff and just communicating all the time.
So there are, there are things out there and I would say doing this alone is going to, Burn it out. And also, like you said, when you get opportunities like you want to be able to refer to people to maintain that relationship, even if you can't do it and making sure that you have a network of people that you've built, that you've built, taken time to build relationships with and know folks, I think it's gonna, it's gonna help.
And there are other people that actually want to create some sort of agency model where, you know, stuff that can't come to them that they can't do, where they refer out for a fee, or like people are still operating under the umbrella of their network. Take care. Organization and are just subcontracted.
So that's, that's the way you're going to find those people. And like anything else, like you get out of it, what you put into it, like, are you maintaining relationships? Are you, you know, putting it on your calendar to check in with people? If that's the way you need to do it, that's, again, that's, that's going to make or break the, I think that the speed and potentially even the success of, of your consulting practice.
Is there anything on those topics that we've kind of covered or anything else that I haven't asked you before I shift into your own personal relationship with these things like change and transition? I, I can't think of anything. I think the biggest soapbox that I'm on these days is just, Understanding that we can operate outside of the ways we've done business and that it's okay and that it's fun.
It's even, it's fun because you get to be an innovator, a frontiers person, right, of creating this new pathway of working together in this, in this space. ecosystem that's outside of the way that we think it's supposed to be, and that it's always been done. So for those who are willing, I think there's so many opportunities for you to create a new, a new way that's, that's a win win win.
So that's, that's my soapbox. I just want to Drill that. I love that it gives such a new meaning, like a modern meaning to the idea of network effect. When we think of new ways to do this, just imagine, I mean, the strengthening underneath the surface of the nonprofit sector would be so much more incredibly deep and wide and rich when you bring consultants in.
Yeah, that's powerful. What three words or a phrase, uh, would you use to describe your own personal relationship to change or transition? I would give, I can give you one word, because I think it's pretty, it's across the board, fear, like I'm pretty fearless. Um, I don't fear failure. I don't fear, I have a high tolerance for embarrassment.
So I think that makes me a good entrepreneur. I think it makes me a fun person, you know, because it's, I, I experiment and I learn quickly. I learn quickly and I pivot quickly and I listen. This is not answering your question in the way that you asked it, but it's just what's kind of popcorn popcorn and coming to mind.
You know, I think, I think those are, that's the way I handle any sort of change. It's like, okay, this is, this is what's happening. Okay. You know, I can, I can sit in my feelings, which I do for a minute, but then I'm, I got it. We have to move on and we have to figure it out. I don't know that I'm super intentional, but I do think that When we're talking about change transition, it's, it's, it's, it's life, life is full of that.
And you can either get sucked in, you know, to the quicksand and not recover, or you can say, I'm going to try whatever it is I need to try, tap the resources, tap what I know is deep inside that I can, I can handle, right. And then figure it out. So. That's how I'd answer that one. I love that, but I would also add, and we don't know each other super well, but I would add that along with you saying that you don't have a fear of failure, you also have an incredible amount of confidence and confidence in being able to say, I don't know, or maybe this was a mistake.
So I think there's something there too, around like, You don't mind making a mistake or trying something and having it fail, but you also are stepping out into it with some confidence that I think helps bring others along for the ride. Um, and also then is maybe part of your brand of leadership too. May, yes, I would say you're right about that.
I do, I do have insecurities. Like I do, there are things where I'm just like, I don't know. Um, and maybe I'm not the best or why me? But I do, but I think, yes, I think it's also, I know it's not going to take me out. You know, that's what it is. No, I'm not gonna. I know I'm gonna figure it out. And that's, that's the confidence I have.
Like, even if I fail, I'm going to learn something from it and I'm gonna be okay. You know, I think that that's really what it is. I was having this conversation literally yesterday with someone trying to figure out what it was. And I think that's, that's what it is. I know it's not going to take me out and I have enough resources.
I have enough friends. I have enough colleagues that I respect. Yeah. And, and it'll be, it'll be okay. It might hurt. It might sting, but I'll be all right. You know? So I think that's the confidence. I love that. Is there anything about change and transition or anything else on your soapbox that you'd get on your soapbox for that people might be shocked or surprised to hear?
I think I would say that fear is part of it and that's okay. And I think recognizing that and not letting it debilitate you or not letting it be something that you fight. Instead, just accept it as part of the process, um, and part of what needs to be there for you to get to the next place that you're supposed to be.
So I guess this falls, you know, ties along with what we were just talking about, where a couple conversations we've had so far, where it's like, you know, the ego that comes into play, the fear of being seen as you don't have it all together. Yes, like that's that people may think that right. And that may be part of it, but that's just it's just part of it.
And you have to sort of accept that. And then you can move through it and move move with it. It's kind of like grief, right? Like, it's just gonna it's just one of those things. It's going to be there. It's you just have to move, move through it. So I think the way that if I were to sort of sum it up in an answer, it would be knowing that fear and uncertainty is, is part of it and, and coming to terms with being okay with it so that you can move through it and get to the other side.
I often say that I put fear in the chair in the corner so I can keep my eye on it. Like, I know it's there. It's, it's always going to be there, but knowing where its place is. Uh, it's kind of like what you were saying too. And I, I think about for the consultants who are listening in the, you know, you probably have a lot of conversations with your consultants in Catalyst.
People are coming to you as the expert to help them through this thing. And I think that we all, we all have the, whether it's imposter syndrome slash complex, or, um, the feeling that we don't know enough yet, we know enough. For them to call to call us and ask us to be in the room next to their folks to help them through a process.
So I think that's a good thing to remember, too, that we have expertise in our own experience that we can bring to the table. Mm hmm. And I would say changes a part of it, too. So if you're on the side of someone who is, say, leaving your role, right? And I think there's probably fear that comes along with that.
There's probably And, and, you know, what are people going to think and what are they going to say? I would say that that's, again, that's part of it too. You can control what you can control. Like if you want to figure out how to support your organization, potentially through a transition. Then that's within your control to contact the resources like you or other folks who can who can do that You know, and if you don't then it's it's just that's just part of your journey I don't know like I just you can't you can't hold on You can't hold on so tightly and white knuckle to really anything, but, you know, in this context, like what other people are going to be thinking about what's going on.
Like you can control what you can control and you can find the support you need, you know, to make it as smooth as possible a transition for everyone. Yeah, I agree with you. My last question for you is what does leaving well mean to you? So leaving well means two things to me because I look on like the inside and the outside.
So leaving well to me means I'm confident that I've done everything that I can do to support myself in the journey and the transition gotten the emotional support that I've needed. Again, understood what I can and can't control, have shared and expressed ways that I feel that the organization can potentially improve or, you know, hopefully those are conversations you already have and just making sure you're not, you know, Leaving with any regrets, honestly, and supporting, um, the next, the next transition, I think leaving well on the side of the team means making sure that you're setting them up to be able to continue to succeed and have the resources and support they need to do the work that they need to do.
You know, like folks, particularly in our space who come to the non profit sector are Generally altruistic folks like they are. They're very passionate about the work that they're doing. And when these transitions occur, it's very painful and it's they it's very personal, you know, for a lot of folks from what I'm what I've, you know, sort of seen.
So I think just making sure that there's communication, that folks feel taken care of and protected, and that you've done what you can to support them so that they can continue to do the work that they are showing up to do. Kamilah, thank you so much for all that you do. I mean, you're the gift that you bring to Catalyst as you build that, the gift that you bring to the relationships that you lean into, um, and also as you chase your own growth, as you continue to be all the things that are going to be next.
I just appreciate you. I'm so glad that we Have had the opportunity to meet, uh, we will have all of the places that you can find Catalyst and Camilla in our show notes. Thank you, Naomi. Thank you. If you've not yet taken the workplace transition archetype quiz to discover your natural relationship to change and transition, you can do that at naomihattaway.com/quiz to learn more about leading well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace. Visit naomihattaway.com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide to shift culture and to create transformation.
Until next time, I'm your host, Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.