58: Joan Brown on Interim Executive Leadership and Workplace Transitions
Joan says: It often feels as if I’ve spent my career leaving positions, organizations, and their people. I love beginnings and the energy that comes with stepping into something new and that means that in some way, I love endings as well. With a whole passel of interim gigs under my belt, I now also work at helping others find and succeed in those roles through the Interim Executives Academy and it’s been a good match. I’m an empty-nester and live and work in Fort Wayne, IN, where I share a house with T.S. Eliot, the cat, who, like me, enjoys nothing more than sitting in the sun. I read. He snores.
Main quote: When change has come to me because of others actions or changes beyond my control, that's where my lessons are. That's when I learn most deeply from the change. And I've learned to grieve if there's some grieving or sadness around change or transition. Then to find what's to celebrate about it.
Additional Quote: I may have to leave something, but I want to know how I can leave with the most grace and respect for what was, and value and treasure what was, and leave everybody in the best position to move forward from the change, not just me. I want to be a person that leaves well, but I also want to be a person that can be left well.
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Transcript:
In this conversation that you're about to hear with Joan, I'm excited to see what you take away as the most important pieces. For me, the most important pieces involve when she talks about the common objections to having someone come into your organization as an interim. There's three things she named, so I'm curious to see how you react to those.
I also think that it's really interesting when Joan talks about an interim leadership leadership. Position being a palate cleanser that really stuck with me because I think that it, uh, as Joan talks about, it does work both ways. There are spectrums of interim leadership that can go and cross the span of being really incredible, well planned, well thought out, and very intentional.
And it can go across the other side of the part of it, the spectrum to be really, really terrible, uh, where there's not planning, where there's a, a step. a great loss, maybe there was a real tragedy or a high profile termination, Joan talks about and brings us the encouragement to have a productive and promising pause.
If you're in the mindset of being, preparing for your organization's next succession, which newsflash everyone's going to have one and they are inevitable, I'm encouraging you to really dig in and listen to this episode with Joan. And then let me know what you think about it. Let me know if what your organization is struggling with when it comes to succession planning and being ready for an interim, you can email me at Naomi at eighth and home.com. I'm excited for you to hear the conversation with Joan.
Joan Brown says that she often feels as though she spent her career leaving positions, organizations, and their people. Joan loves the beginnings and energy that comes with success. stepping into something new, and that means in some way, she also loves endings as well. Joan has a whole pastel of interim gigs under her belt and also now works helping others to find and succeed in those roles through the Interim Executives Academy, and she loves that match.
She's an empty nester and lives and works in Fort Wayne, Indiana, where she shares a house with T. S. Elliott, the cat, who, like Joan, enjoys nothing more than sitting in the sun. Joan says that she reads. And the cat snores. Joan, I'm so glad to have you on this podcast for a discussion about interim executive leadership.
And I would love if you could start by sharing kind of a high level definition of what interim executive leadership is and why it matters in the nonprofit sector. Well, thank you so much for having me. What a pleasure. I'm always glad when we can connect for me. Interim leadership at the executive level is when an organization decides intentionally to bring in an expert, a professional who has been trained specifically around this idea of temporary leadership.
They come into an organization in a time of crisis. change and uncertainty to provide stability, leadership, sometimes repair and healing and direction, uh, not meant to be permanent, meant to be temporary, to help an organization get on to the next thing, the next chapter. It's interesting because you and I first met because I participated in Interim Executive Academy, um, a few summers ago, and it's interesting to me that because, like, for me, it's normal, uh, that the idea of Interim Executive Leadership, but as I talk to people and tell people about what I do, nine times out of ten, people have never heard of it before.
Do you think that that's something that we'll see that gap close in the next coming years, or do you think it will always be something that we are striving to encourage people to consider? Thank you I think we'll always have to be encouraging it. It has been seen as sort of a crisis intervention thing.
People will often ask me, is that a real thing? Do you get paid for that? Yes. Yes, we do. But this idea, I think, that it is something to be planned for and intentionally added to an organization's way of being is growing. We are seeing more organizations say, I don't know. I think we should just jump to the next leader or more often.
We don't even know what kind of a leader to hire yet. Let's take a little bit of time. So I think we will always have to be ambassadors for this profession, but I do think that it's growing in acceptance. I also think that as you're talking about that, and oftentimes people think that it's. For a moment of crisis, thinking instead about how can it be part of succession planning?
How can it be the plan that the board knows they have this to fall back on? And I often think, and you may have a different opinion, but I often think that board chairs, board members that are active. Shouldn't necessarily just assume that they're the right fit for an interim role. Oftentimes that's what happens.
I'm so encouraged by the fact that the IEA exists and that there are people across the country that you all have trained that can step in. So I guess I'm curious to hear from you what common objections you might hear from board of directors or executives who haven't yet accepted that There's a really big importance of having interim leadership.
I think there are three objections that I hear on a fairly routine basis. As I talk with organizations that are experiencing some sort of leadership change and those objections are very often pointed at validating the choice to put a board member in that place. So these are the objections and this is why.
We should just put a board member in that place and, you know, 80 20 rule. We've seen it where a board member has stepped into an interim position and been wonderful. That's a 20. The 80 is, it's just problematic for everyone. So the objections that I hear are, first of all, money. This feeling that somehow bringing in an interim is going to, you know, break the bank and throw a wrench into the budget.
And I often work with organizations in saying, but you've been paying someone, right? We've been paying someone to do this job, so let's really look at what the cost of an interim might be, and it might not be budget neutral, but it's not going to destroy you. It's an investment, not an expense. The second objection that I hear very often is, well, then we have to go through two transitions.
We're going to bring in this interim and everybody's got to get used to them. And then we're going to, you know, in a few months, we're going to change and bring in somebody new and everybody's got to get used to that. And I always try to make the point that an interim really isn't coming in as the next boss.
But as a partner, the interim is a partner for the board, for the staff, for the constituency and the community to get through this period of time in the very best position you can. And great interims position themselves that way. We're getting ready from the minute we start an interim gig. We're getting ready for your next leader.
I'm a partner with you. And that helps. I think, but that objection and the third objection is, is this idea that we could not possibly have somebody come into this organization as an interim that didn't know all about us. We've got to have somebody that knows us. And I remind them, unless you're a one person show, and we have some of those.
You have staff that are already managing much of the workload of the day to day. You don't need an expert in running a food bank, or an expert in, you know, a news media outlet, or an expert in a shelter for those experiencing homelessness. You need a leadership expert, someone who can take you through this transition and end up in a better place when you cross the bridge.
So those three objections are the ones that I hear most often as I talk with organizations. Yeah, I love those are also Poignant and I'm, as you are saying them, I was nodding along in agreement just from my experiences with interim executive leadership. I think there's so much about the budget piece that scares, especially nonprofits away, but the cost of not doing it is always the question.
Also, what's the cost of not doing it to bring someone in who can help study the ship? And get the organization ready for what's next. I think that interims are priceless. Um, and I think that it's beautiful to be able to share more and more examples of stories. And so I think it's powerful. I've been seeing some on LinkedIn recently where organizations will share that they've just had someone in his interim and they'll share how powerful and how impactful it was.
And I think we'll see more of that too as people get more used to it. I love the surprise that comes now me when an organization who maybe felt like they didn't have an alternative. They didn't know what to do will invest in an interim and then are just blown away by what this. person who in the long run does not have a horse in the race.
Interims aren't a candidate for the job. They're not auditioning. They're here to make it better during this period of time. And I think boards are sometimes just amazed at what can happen in six months or nine months. to you, and I'm not going to start a class with someone who is very focused on getting this organization in good shape and steady stable, happy.
That's the question that I get asked the most in my role as interim currently in the process that I'm in is, are you a candidate? Are you going to consider staying and it's an interesting question to try and answer because they want that to be the answer of, yes, that I am interested. I think the other thing that's really, Wild to think about is, um, conversations that I've had with multiple people about if you can do this much in this short amount of time, not having them expect their incoming ed to perform in the same ways.
Um, and so that's a big piece of it too. I think one of the things that I thought was so powerful during Interim Executive Academy was the idea of transformation. That it is very intentionally built to be a period of transformation and stability, but that's not necessarily what people. Need to look for in their long-term eds because they're there for two years, three years, however long they are.
Um, so I, I really wanna highlight that, transform that transformative, uh, component of an interim as well. I think great interims almost from the minute they walk in the door are preparing the organization for their departure. And some of that is setting the expectation. I've talked with interims who will say to their board, I'm doing it this way because I'm your interim, but I want you to know that your next leader will probably not do it like this.
I'm sharing this information with you because I want you to know where we're going. But you should know that an executive director doesn't really need to share this much information with you. Setting those kinds of expectations and expectations. And sort of keeping everything on the real can be really, really important.
And I always say, if we've done a good job, they will want us to stay. And it can be a real ego trip to be in an interim position and have them begging you to stay. Then we need to remember why we're doing this in the first place, why we've chosen this field. And, and also that the wonderful relationship that we may have had over six months or nine months Would be a completely different relationship.
If we stepped into that role permanently and for most of us, we've made a choice to not have that role. Yeah, what would you say? Because I think there's the flip side. Also, you were talking about. The interim being able to say, I might be doing things this way, but you're in, you know, your incoming ed might do things differently.
There's also, I think, an opportunity for an interim to be a little bit bolder than the incoming long term ed might be around. Maybe even. Repairing a relationship between executive leadership and board of directors or helping board of directors to shift to governance. If that's the right growing up pattern that they need to be in.
Have you seen any traits or qualities or skill sets in a person who can handle an interim executive leadership role where they might be better suited for something like that? I don't know if you have things that you've spotted along the way. I think bravery is really important. I think interims need to like come in with some level of courage because we know whatever we think the situation is, is not.
Um, and, and there's no malice in that. I think very often, my work primarily does, is doing intakes with boards that are looking for interims and then talking to interims that would like to have those positions. And I don't think it's that boards mean to hide things, but they often don't know what they don't know.
And so I do think interims need to be, have a level of bravery to even step into the positions And the, the concept of sort of shining your light brightly on the things that a board may be ignoring or not seeing, or especially if there's been a transition maybe that has happened a while ago and they've sort of fumbled around for a bit, and the board got more and more involved in operations, helping that board to move back to where it needs to be to really talking about basic Board responsibilities, what's the appropriate relationship for board members to have with staff members, those kind of things.
Because we know we're leaving, we can be bold in what we say to boards, right? We're there to be, as I'm sure you've heard us talk about before, innovative disruptors. What is going on in this organization that we need to disrupt before a new executive is hired? Because we want them to stay. Yeah, and I also think about when you were saying that boldness and courage and the willingness to disrupt for an interim, it also makes me think about the executive director who might be listening, who thinks, Or who knows that it's their time to go, or they want to plan with some runway.
And so I would just encourage you, if you're listening as an executive director and want to think about employing the work and the transformation of an interim executive leader to really intentionally think about, start talking to your board of directors whenever it's the right time for you to tell them that you're leaving.
Because I think that proactive planning Could be really beautiful for an organization. I'm sure Joan, that you have a lot of folks that are in the crisis mode that might reach out to you. I'm curious, do organizations reach out to you more proactively? They do. And one of the great things for us to see is a board who has an active succession plan.
It doesn't have to be perfect. You can change your plan. But if you have a plan that says, we know people are going to leave, that is the reality at all levels of the organization and the board. People are going to leave sometimes planned, sometimes not. Let's have a scenario. Let's have a blueprint that says, we don't have to panic, we know what we're going to do.
So we do have organizations come to us that say, part of our plan is that we will investigate an interim. Even organizations that have a fairly long runway of knowing their executive is leaving often look at the interim Not as a crisis management or not as because we don't have time, but because we need a break.
Yes. We need in some ways a palate cleanser. It works both ways, Naomi. If it, if this departing person was beloved, we need to give everybody a chance to get over that, that our next leader will not be that. If there were lots of difficulties, lots of problems, lots of trauma, we need to get over that too.
And the best way to do that is to build in this really productive, promising pause. where the organization together can look forward to what they want. So it is a pleasure to deal with an organization who has always had interim leadership as part of their plan. We don't see it as often as we'd like. Um, and to your point about executive directors, some of the most positive discussions that I have are with executive directors.
Who say I am going to leave and I want to leave my organization in the best place I possibly can. And I think that's an interim. Can you give me some tools to talk to my board about this? I also think about when you were talking about the long runway, sometimes what's also helpful is to have, I'm thinking about the ED who knows they want to go and they have a long runway.
How beautiful it would be to have the interim plan in place because that also changes your willingness to stay for the whole time that you said might change something else might come up that you want to be able to go to go do and it can help so much to not have the guilt or the feeling of leaving an organization kind of stranded if there's already an interim plan in place is really beautiful.
And it helps with the idea that, well, we haven't been able to find anybody. Can you stay for another month? Can you stay for another three months? Can you stay till the end of the year? Which is just awkward, right? And not what anyone wants. You, you had your mind in the place of leaving, and now, but you're committed to the good of the organization.
And that is, that is, That almost never ends really well. Yeah, everybody's burned out and tired. So I think an interim can really give you that space and it gives boards space to take their time in a search, which we know is extremely important. Can you talk a little bit kind of going back to the question about the skill sets and qualities that an interim executive that makes a good interim executive leader.
Um, can you talk a little bit about the, Um, maybe the nuance or the things that are, that are surprising to people when it comes to the training and certification that Interim Executives Academy offers. I think sometimes people are surprised that we, we like have a method, you know, a linear method like this, it's step by start here and go to here and, and we found that that method is important, whether you are sort of a natural at managing change, or whether managing change feels chaotic to you that if there's a method.
You at least have mile markers along the way. So we do teach a pretty specific methodology for approaching interim work. We know that everybody goes into situations that are not what you expected and not what you could plan for. But having a method really gives confidence, I think, or at least it does for me, that Oh, this place is way worse off than I thought it was going to be, but I do have a plan that I can follow and I don't feel lost.
It is very easy to get buried in minutiae at the beginning of an interim engagement. And I think our method really allows people to have a navigational tool that they will adapt to their own use and their own, the organization that they're in. But I did interim gigs without a real plan. And when I look back on those now, I think I wasted a lot of time at the beginning trying to get my bearings.
And doing activities that perhaps weren't as productive as they could have been. So we really think no matter what the skill set, no matter what the experience level, no matter what the personality is, that a method matters in approach. It's how we take what we learned as in our other iterations of leadership in our permanent positions or settled positions, if you will, the experiences, the skills, the expertise, and hone it into something that works temporarily, which is different.
Yeah. I love that you said that about the methodology, because that's, that was one of the biggest things I took away from when I went through the program was it gives you riverbanks to be able to not only use for myself when I'm in that space, but also to really help the board be aligned and in synergy.
With me as I go. Um, and I feel like that's part of the beauty also then about being able to say my time's coming to an end is there's also that pivot point of knowing, okay, we're about at the middle point so that that relationship can start to untether a little bit to be able to create space for the incoming ed.
So yeah, the methodology and the framework is really, really important. I think it is. And that's what we hear back from folks. Oh, I wish I'd had this before I did interim work or this was a really difficult engagement and those boundaries sort of the, like, this is the path. Yes. You're going to take some, some twists and turns, but you know where you're going.
And also that idea of knowing when to start talking with the board about their search, because if it's good, if it's going well, they don't even want to have that conversation. Okay. Let's just keep going. Everything's wonderful, but we can be the ones that say, you know, we're at about the four or five month mark.
And let's start talking about what search might look like here. So, yeah, I think it's really important. I will say, even though you may start to have that conversation with the board about it being time for search, they might still not want to. Yeah, I didn't see around that. I always just take as testimony.
Yeah, the interim is has integrated well into the organization and is doing a good job. a wonderful job. Leaving well applies to interims. Yeah, it sure does. It sure does. I have a couple of questions at the end that are more maybe personal to you and your relationship to change, but I wonder if there's anything else that you want to share about specifically interim leadership and the work that you do.
No, I think we've covered some really important points about why why we're all fans of it, why we want to see it continue to grow in this important sector of influencing communities. So I appreciate the opportunity to talk about it. Before we go into those questions, I just want to let the listener know that if you want to find out more about the Interim Executive Academy, we'll have links and such things in the show notes, and we can also make sure that folks know how to get in touch with you, Joan, if they're interested in more information.
So I'm curious to know what three words or phrase or how you would describe your relationship to change and or transition. So, I am a person that enjoys change. I've changed jobs a lot. I've changed houses. Change for me is energizing. It opens up creative pathways for me, that staying, I've never been very good at staying at the same thing for very long.
It's why interim work appealed to me. I realized I was really good at beginnings. Not, not so good at the day to day, ongoing kind of thing, and so I like change. If there's not change happening, I start to get bored and uneasy that I've stagnated in some way. So my relationship with change has always been an interesting, Friendship.
I'm with you there. I, I think I used to, I used to think of myself as a little bit strange or like I was on the island of Misfit Toys because I do love change. What I've come to know, I think as I, as I get older, is that I still do have some reckoning to have happen to me. Um, with regard to my relationship to transition, um, that I, I view them as separate now, but I'm with you on, um, loving change so much.
Is there anything about change or transition that people might be shocked or surprised to hear you say, especially as someone who loves it and maybe thrives in it and looks for it? An interesting thing occurs to me that the change. And transitions, both of, I see the difference in them, and I've experienced both.
That I've learned the most from have been changes or transitions that were thrust upon me as opposed to ones I chose. I choose change when it feels right to me. And, and so there's a comfort about that. I'm, I'm going to pick what's next. I'm going to pick when. But when change has come to me, Because of others actions or change beyond my control.
That's where my lessons are. That's when I learn most deeply from the change and I've learned to grieve if there's some grieving or sadness around change or transition and then to sort of find what's to celebrate about that. What's, what are the opportunities for me as a You know, part of the human race to grow and and benefit from something I thought I didn't want.
That's really beautiful to think about Joan because it makes me think about the journey and the path of change that if something especially is happening to you, there is still some ups and downs that will come. It's not all the moment and the feelings of when you first find out about the change or when it first happens to you.
Um, so there's so much opportunity for growth. So I'm glad you talked about that. And. The reality that grief happens does and in all sorts of ways, right? We have grief around work that changed when we weren't ready for it too. And certainly grief around personal relationships that are lost or change in a way that we had not hoped.
So I celebrate that. Yeah, I do too. I'm with you. Okay. My last question for you is what does leaving well mean to you? So I've left things, right? Jobs, certainly, I've left plenty of jobs. But I've left other things, like a church, or friendships that no longer were working. And I always, whatever that is, leaving well means, I just don't do damage, you know, do no harm.
I may have to leave something, but how can I leave with the most grace and respect for what was, and value and treasure what was, and leave everybody in the best position to move forward from the change, not just me. But I get to leave with care about me too. I get to take care of myself in the leaving and the other thing I think about with leaving well is I want to be a person that leaves well, but I also want to be a person that can be left well.
And I think about relationships that I've had at work where I mentored young professionals and loved them and it was just the most wonderful team in the world. And then they leave for something else. And I always want to be a person that can be left behind. Exuding joy and celebration and hope and grace, not selfishness or pain or defensiveness or personal hurt because someone had.
An opportunity to do something good for them. I want to leave well, but I want to be left well, too. I got goosebumps when you said that last part. That is so beautiful, and I think it's so impactful to just think about what are the ways, because we can acknowledge the reality that people leave. People are leaving all the time.
Sometimes we don't know it yet. But how can we make sure that we are taking care of ourselves in both the process of leaving or being left? So, absolutely wonderful. Joan, thank you so much for this conversation. My pleasure. Pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you. I appreciate you. If you've not yet taken the workplace transition archetype quiz to discover your natural relationship to change and transition, you can do that at naomihattaway.com/quiz to learn more about living well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace, visit naomihataway. com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide to shift culture and to create transformation.
Until next time, I'm your host, Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.
