35: Ashlan Glazier-Anderson, on Not Burning Bridges, Documenting Your Processes, and Having a Leaving Well Policy
“Investing in your people matters so much more than anything else.”
Ashlan Glazier-Anderson is a Professional Certified Marketer (PCM) and Certified Digital Marketing Professional (CDMP) with over 15 years of experience in the field. She has worked in a variety of industries, from advertising agencies to corporate America to nonprofit organizations. She thrives on helping clients solve problems and create unique strategies to best reach their target audience, drive revenue, and grow their businesses at scale. As an entrepreneur, she can help you build a strong marketing function, with the right systems to get more done with fewer resources.
Ashlan holds a Master's degree in Strategic Communications from the University of Oregon and a Bachelor's degree in Business Administration, Marketing from Portland State University (PSU). She completed a Certificate in Nonprofit Program Evaluation with the PSU Nonprofit Institute.
Ashlan is an active volunteer and serves as Professional Chapter Leadership Advisor for the American Marketing Association, Past President of AMA PDX, the American Marketing Association Portland chapter, and Board Secretary for the People’s Nonprofit Accelerator. Through these organizations, she continues to increase her knowledge, strengthen her leadership skills, and expand her network to better serve her clients.
In March 2020, she was recognized for her service to the community as a Portland Trail Blazers Hometown Hero by Director's Mortgage. She was born in Hawaii, moved to Oregon at the age of 10 and recently relocated to Las Vegas, Nevada where she lives with her husband, Jon, and their fur babies Ahri (mixed breed small dog), Loki and Leilani (two former ferral cats who were raised as siblings).
“Organizations: you should be rewarding people who say that they want to stick around, want to do more, want to do better with you. And if you’re not hearing that, if you’re not listening to that, then people are going to leave you and that’s going to be what happens. ”
Additional Quotes:
Investing in your people matters so much more than anything else.
Leaving well means that you have taken the intentional time to Set people up to lessen the blow of you leaving.
To connect with Ashlan or learn more about her work:
Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn
Check out Ashlan’s recent guest appearance on the School of Moxie podcast.
Take the Workplace Transition Archetype Quiz.
To learn more about Leaving Well, click here.
My Bookshop.org Leaving Well library has many resources to support your workplace transition journey!
To support and contribute to the production costs of this podcast:
This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
Transcript:
Organizations, you should be rewarding people who say that they want to stick around and they want to do more and they want to do better with you. And if you're not hearing that if you're not listening to that. If you have your blinders on about that, then people are going to leave you. And that's going to be what happened.
This is leaving well, where we unearth and explore the realities of leaving a job role, project, or title with intention and purpose, and when possible. Joy. I'm Naomi Hattaway, your host. I will bring you experiences and lessons learned about necessary endings in the workplace with nuanced takes from guests on topics such as grief, confidence, leadership, and career development.
Braided Throughout will be solo episodes sharing my best practices and leaving well framework. Expect to be inspired. Challenged and reminded that you too can embed and embody the art and practice of leaving well, as you seek to leave your imprint in this world. Ashlan Glazier Anderson is a professional certified marketer and certified digital marketing professional with over 15 years of experience in the field.
She's worked in a variety of industries from advertising agencies, to corporate America, to nonprofit organizations. She thrives on helping clients solve problems and create unique strategies to best reach their target audience, drive revenue, and grow their businesses at scale. As an entrepreneur, she can help you build a strong marketing function with the right systems to get more done with fewer resources.
Ashlan holds a master's degree in strategic communications from the University of Oregon and a bachelor's degree in business administration marketing from Portland State University. She completed a certificate in nonprofit program evaluation with the PSU Nonprofit Institute. Ashlan is an active volunteer and serves as professional chapter leadership advisor for the American Marketing Association, past president of AMAPDX, the American Marketing Association, Portland chapter, and board secretary for the People's Nonprofit Accelerator.
Through these organizations, she continues to increase her knowledge, strengthen her leadership skills, and expand her network to better serve her clients. In March 2020, she was recognized for her service to the community as a Portland Trailblazers hometown hero by Director's Mortgage. She was born in Hawaii, moved to Oregon at the age of 10, and recently relocated to Las Vegas, Nevada, where she lives with her husband, John, and their fur babies, Ari, Loki, and Leilani.
Ashlan, I'm really excited to have this conversation with you, and I'd love to jump in to the first question and ask you, what was the most resonant moment that you had when you realized you needed to leave your work in the corporate sector? I've been laughing as I keep seeing them on Instagram reels.
Um, that moment when people are like, you're so good at your job. You then take on bits and pieces of other people's jobs. So, you know, as a constant and consummate overachiever, you know, I would be like, I'm done with it. What more can I do? You have to, you know, work, work, work while you're at work. And, you know, realizing I was getting the recognition of being added to, you know, internal councils and adding to these committees and still getting all my work done.
And then realizing much later in life. You were doing unpaid labor, you were adding, you know, all these activities that in your head seemed really good because you were getting, you know, in front of when I was working in corporate, you know, I was getting in front of different parts of the organization, but it wasn't coming with additional compensation.
It wasn't coming with, you know, they'll be like, Oh, you're so good. I'd, I'd apply for a higher level job, and I'd be left in the position that I was in. Oh no, we ended up choosing somebody else or. One of my bosses was like, Oh, well, I figured since you just got married, you wouldn't want to be doing a bunch of traveling.
And I was like, Oh no, I would love to make an extra, you know, 20, 10 to 20 K a year, you know, would get out of this thing. But yeah, that was kind of the moment where I was just like, okay, there's, you know, and many jobs, I was like, there is no place for me to move up here. And so I need to go look elsewhere.
I think that's so impactful when you think about. Even the expansive thought of it's not just being asked to do more and more tasks. It's being asked to serve on committees or councils or advisory spots or leading workshops for the rest of your team or for the rest of the organization. I wonder, was there a set of.
Moments where it was piling on top of each other. Was it a long time that you were thinking this doesn't feel right? Was it more of a quick, like, okay, this is, I'm done. I think as I moved more and more jobs, my radar for this is not right. Got, it was a shorter timeframe. You know, my first, I stayed in corporate America for six years and I'm like, no, you know, you were, I mean, I was definitely taught in.
College in undergrad, like this is the kind of job you go get. This is what you do. You just stick it out. I had a lot of also influenced from like family members. I mean, my grandmother, every single time I switched jobs, she's just like, Oh my gosh, how are you going to do like retirement and this and that?
And, you know, she, I think stayed at one company for a number of years and then they shut down and then she only stayed at another company. For the rest of her career before she retired. So, you know, there was also that in the back of my head of like, you stick it out, you work hard, your company takes care of you.
And I just don't think that that is, I should say, that is the way that most companies are. There are some companies that, that do value their people. You know, and I'm trying to, in my own business, build that with my team. I'm just like, please let me know. In September this year we did, or October, somewhere around that time frame we did annual reviews with everybody.
And one of the questions on my annual review form is like, what do you see, where do you see yourself with this company in a year, in five years? And when we went through them, everybody was just like, why are you so worried about us leaving? And I was like, because I never I will admit I never said anything or directly, you know, you try to drop hints and hope people get it.
But like I never said directly, like you were going to lose me. I just kind of looked for something else. Well, and I think that sometimes the knowing of what, what is your career path or your desired hopes can just be so grounding for everyone. It can be grounding for the manager. To know what their runway looks like in terms of what the team dynamics are and the team makeup, but I also think it offers, you know, so say one of your people during the annual review said, I think I'm good or here for another year or two.
That also lets you be really hyper focused on what do you need for both of you to be the most engaged with the work for the next year or two, instead of. At the end of year two, them all of a sudden saying, I think I'm out. You know, I've definitely had the conversation too of like, just let me know in advance and we'll make, you know, if it's not here, I will happily help you find what it is you wanna move on to.
Yeah. Um, but yeah, everybody right now is like you really thinking about that and it's like, Hey, I'm doing my job right. If you're never. To do that. Well, and that's, that's the whole premise behind leaving. Well, is the reality that people leave. And I think we have to normalize and that's part of the reason for this podcast overall is that we have to start talking about the fact that people leave and then how can we be better about navigating those workplace transitions.
So I love that now that you're a business owner, that you're thinking about those things. And I'm sure drawing from your own experience. Of having left to bring that into your team? Yeah. Is there a particular way or process or thing that you did when you departed and started your own business or is there something you wish you had done?
Uh, the thing that I did and what I did from every kind of job and got better at it, I think, as I left is once I started thinking about leaving, every time I would do something, I would start a stand like an operating procedure of like, There is somebody who is going to need to know how to do this. I did lots of videos at different companies, you know, left them with a document that was like, here's all the things.
And, and I also, you know, as time went on advocated for. You need to leave that last two weeks. I, you know, there is a limited number of things I will do in my scope. My job is to write down how to do my job so that whoever you bring in, because a lot of times there is no transition period. You are not training the person who replaces you.
Your poor boss, who's already like, Oh my God, I lost a great person. It's like, now I get to do your job. Now I get to find another person. And then I have to remember what the heck it is that you do. Um, and one of the things that I always do when I enter any work or workspace is if things don't work for me in the way that they were created in the system, I make new systems and processes that work for me.
So I, you know, whatever. That boss trained me on is probably not the reality anymore. So I wish I would have, I guess one of the things I wish I would do when I start new roles is start that process of documenting earlier so that in that last two weeks, you're not just being like. Uh, and I hope I caught everything and I never like to burn bridges, you know, so a lot of people that I know are like, just flame out, you're never going to have to talk to them again.
And I'm like, ah, no, if I ever have to, you know, luckily as an entrepreneur, things have been working out well and I, I'm not really concerned about having to go look internally, but like if shit hits the fan. I will have to call on those people to be references again. So you do not want to, you know, do all the things where you can't then pick up the phone and be like, Hey, I need you to talk really nicely about me and convince these people that I belong here, even though I'm going to spend, you know, however long in interviews with them.
They still don't. Okay. Well, that's another thing. Do you not trust the person that you're interviewing to be telling the truth that you have to double check with references? I always think that's a really weird thing. Um, I also advise folks and like, keep up with the people you plan to call as references because you know, it might have been two, three, five years since the last time you chatted with them and definitely give them a heads up that they're going to be contacted.
But yeah, so let's kind of. Things that I wish I would have done start earlier and think that you are, you know, going to leave at some point. What can you do to get easier. I want to, I want to elevate one of the last things you said, and then circle back to one of the first things you said, I want to elevate for you as a listener.
Keep in touch with the people that you are using as your references. And if nothing else, give them a heads up that you're making a transition in your workplace and that they will likely be called. The other thing I think about when keeping in touch with those that you use for your references, it's a really good way to check in with them, let them know what you've been up to, and also give them a heads up on what you're really proud of that you've been doing so that when they are called as a reference.
They're not saying things that were five years ago or three years ago. Uh, I would love Ashlan to, to circle back to the documentation process. I have a friend who's currently preparing for medical leave and has been working on doc documentation of her daily work. And it's a struggle. Uh, I wonder if you have like tips or tricks or just the way that you look at, how do you start with the blank page and get through documenting some of your processes?
What I like to do is think of them in buckets. So you look at. Things that you do daily, things that you do weekly, things that you do monthly, and then things that are like, you know, annual or quarterly or that, and then start bucketing into those categories. And I am a prolific note taker. So like, actually, since I've started my business, I keep track of what I do every hour of every day.
Um, and that, you know, has helped me as I've grown my team and been like, okay, Ashlan, you are spending, you know, this much time on admin, this much time on this. You're not, you know, being, putting on your CEO pants and being the CEO of your company that really has helped me figure out what's going to go in the job description.
What's going to be a part of whoever new you bring in. So my, that is also really important too. If you are working internally at a company and you're like, Oh my gosh, this is overwhelming. You know, one of the companies that I left, they hired three people whose jobs contained little bits of my job after I left.
And I was just like, I had been telling them, I was just like, Hey, priorities need to shift. I can't be doing all the, we can't be balancing all three of these things at the same time. There's only two hands. And so something has to go. So that could also be really helpful for you to be like. Here's proof positive that I am doing too much and burnout is like a real thing in companies.
So having noted those things makes it also easier to transition internally on your team to somebody else and support getting, you know, a help staff, help you move up, leaving and transitioning doesn't only happen. Between companies, it can happen within your own organization. I also want to circle back to the thing about references, which I thought was really funny.
My last job that I interviewed for did a reference check, texted the person like, Hey, they're going to give you a call. Here's what I'm doing now. And the person who hired me said, your reference check was so funny. He said, I didn't even know she was looking, we would totally have her back. And she was like, that sold.
On being like, I can't let this person go. I love that so much that she wants to work here as opposed to the way. If you left well, and there is reason, you know, that you could potentially go back to an old organization, the fact that I didn't burn that bridge could be something that I'm like, hey, it didn't work.
I will come back. Well, and think about even from the Vantage point of if we all can agree that people leave your direct supervisor, your direct report, like they also will likely leave. And so not burning the bridge is not just for the organization. It's for where they may go in the future. Maybe they have a brand new project or an exciting venture that they want you to be a part of.
And so not burning that bridge is important there too. Yeah. And I think it's worth saying as a caveat, like, of course, there are toxic situations where it's not in your. Best interest to try and protect relationship. Obviously, there's all sorts of situations where it's not in your best interest or even in your control to not burn a bridge.
But when you can definitely try. Yeah, what three words would you use to describe your relationship to change or transition? You've moved a lot. You've relocated geographically a lot. You have had a plethora of opportunities and experiences. So I'm curious what you would say your relationship is to change and transition.
It used to be, like, scared, anxiety ridden, and panic all the time, and I think now that I am older, it is welcomed. I don't know a good way to put this in a single word, but like a necessary part of life, like, like seasons change, things transition. I guess it's, it's normalized, I would say in, in that sense, and exciting as opposed to like, freaked out.
It's interesting you mentioned that about seasons changing. We lived in Singapore for a while and we now live in South Florida where there are less obvious changes of seasons. And when we moved back from being in Singapore, our daughter had her early childhood memories were of Living in tropical. Uh, and she was so impressed when spring came, she said, where did all of this beauty come from?
Because she'd never remembered what it was like to have winter and then spring. Um, and I just think we are richer for change and we are richer for transition. Yeah. What are you walking towards and hoping for as you continue to get currently farther away from corporate and closer to this? routine and your cadence of being an entrepreneur and a business owner.
One of my constant gut checks for myself is, am I building a company that I would want to work at as a, as an employee? And thinking about What I would want to see from the team, from the leadership. So, you know, we have a completely remote team. I am the only one right now who lives in Las Vegas. We've got folks in Oregon, Rhode Island, Colorado, California.
One of our team members was overseas in Europe for a good three months and is planning on traveling again. And so I'm not only trying to build that. I'm also trying to give. Permission to others to create spaces like this. So where people are valued where, you know, you're not so worried. Like, I know that there's been a lot of people who are like, Oh, everybody needs to come back to the office.
And I'm like, do they need to come back to the office? Because Yeah. You are probably not looking at that really expensive piece of real estate that you are buying and you're like, I have to justify keeping this space or is it really because there's a productivity issue. And so I'm also teaching people to learn that.
Work happens. Things can still happen when you have a remote team. And I'm lucky if I get to see everybody in person at least once a year who's on my, uh, my team. And the other thing that I'm going towards is partnering with other organizations that are, that are building kind of this. idea of having a company culture that values people's wellness, well being.
Um, I have a few clients right now that are just so values aligned with that idea of taking care of the person. I mean, we, You know, we work because we're in a capitalist society and system, and it's a necessary thing to earn, earn money and revenue, but we also can be human first and, you know, know that that is the primary reason we exist.
We don't work or live to work. We, we work to live. What would you say for the person listening who is like, okay, Ashlan, this sounds really great and beautiful, but what, how do I find companies that operate that way? Or, or maybe the question is how would they determine if a company operates that way? Do you have advice?
Oh, uh, try to reach, you know, I've had people reach out to me on LinkedIn before and, you know, try to have conversations with people who are already working there. And I would say not people who are high up, ask the regular everyday person. And I mean, we're blessed that we have platforms like LinkedIn. We, you know, have social media.
That can get you in touch with folks. And don't be afraid to say, you know, Naomi, I saw this position posted at a company that you're working at. Could I have 15 minutes to ask you what it's like working there? And most people are completely honest about it. You can also go take a look at the Glassdoor reviews.
And I feel like if anything seems weird, gut check yourself and just walk away. And I always like to have. Questions to ask during the interview process of the folks now as a woman of color, I mean, many of them are DEI related, like, you know, what's your policy on addressing microaggressions in the workplace, or what are the types of trainings that your team is going through?
Or for me, a huge gut check is if I look on your website and your entire leadership team is all white men. Probably not interested in working with you. And so knowing those things and where your own, um, where your own lens lies, uh, and not being afraid to walk away because gosh, I never realized, you know, when I was dreaming about what my big, what my big kid job someday, that this would be it.
So bracing the change and that what you thought before may not necessarily be what ends up being in the end. I love that you said that about social media use and checking in with people. Use it to your advantage. I, I think that's something that we might feel scared to do, but what a beautiful, uh, inside look into how a company treats their folks to just ask them.
And then I also really appreciated your comment about checking in with your own lens and your own values and knowing what it is that you need and then asking questions to that around what the policies are. I joke, but I think it's also something beautiful that one of these days, hopefully people will start asking HR or whoever's interviewing what their leaving well policy is.
How do you treat folks that leave? Um, because I think that could tell a lot about an organization. That's great, actually. I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna co opt that. I'm gonna have some leaving well policies. Yeah. And I think, like, even if, so if I was asked that, what's your leaving well policy? I mean, it could be as simple as we treat people with the same Excitement as when they came in, you know, so it can be simple.
It doesn't have to be hard and long, but yeah. Yeah. I think that that is really interesting because there's been so many, I want to, I want to address that. There's been so many companies that I've transitioned out of, you know, you tell your boss, you give your notice. I mean, I think I had like four days where people knew at one of my companies and they're like, no, no, we have to keep it hush, hush this and that.
And then, you know, like I think the last organization that I was working at I don't think anybody on the leadership team said anything to me before I exited because I had been there under seven months, but I was just like, that just shows. that there is something broken in your culture. I think about the effort and the time and the money that it takes to onboard someone, even in the worst of scenarios, there's still a lot of time and effort taken for onboarding.
And then offboarding is literally So broken, so broken. And I think there's a, there's a space we're going back to when you were talking about documentation. As an individual, it's a really beautiful way to have some imprint and some kind of lasting legacy to document your work and your processes for the stayers, the people who stay behind.
But it's also an organizational responsibility to help people leave in a way that protects their own their Energy protects the company's reputation and then also protects the team because the team who stays behind is watching how people are exited. Uh, and that's, that goes deep and it's, it's a lasting impression.
Oh, that is such a good point because yeah, what ends up happening is a good. It's dumped on the people who are left behind. And I, I feel like that is always, that has always been why I have stayed longer than I probably should in an organization is that you make relationships with these people and you're like, Oh my gosh, this is going to be put back on that.
And then I, I have that anxiety in my brain and I'm like, it's not your fault. You're not being treated well. This is not, you know, like this is not working out for you. They also have an option and an opportunity. Um, and I think that is also why. It's interesting that you talk all about the onboarding and your ramp up.
I've had members of my team that are going through really hard stuff right now and the amount of openness that they've had and bringing it up to me. And I'm like, what can we do? What can we do to shift things around so that you can have, you know, this time. For grief, for taking care of your family, for dealing with things, because I would rather not lose you.
I would rather retain you because I, I have to teach somebody else to deal with my crazy, chaotic way that I work. And we have already figured out how we work together. And that Matters so much more investing in your people matters so much more than anything else in the world there. And I think whenever people leave, the company always points at the person.
The person did something wrong. We did nothing wrong. There was nothing that we could have done to make this better. It is not our fault. It is something wrong with them. Oh, please stop thinking that it is not we as employee and employers and there's so many states out there that are right to work state, but they're like anything we can get rid of you.
I think it's a contract between both sides. And when you do not fulfill your end like It is not just about writing a check and letting us cash it. That is not, that is not employers responsibilities. That's not your only responsibility anymore. And it's a competitive advantage to be a company that offers more than that, because money is.
Energy, we can go, we can choose all the different ways to get it. Uh, I would rather be at a place that cares about me as a person than as a number and a paycheck going out. Absolutely. I have participated in some HR webinars recently. I want, I wanted to kind of put my self in the space of learning that lingo.
And I have to tell you, Ashlan, I was. I was really disappointed in the words and the phrases and the attitudes that I was hearing from that as an industry. I know there's amazing HR people, and I know there's amazing, amazing humans that happen to be in HR, but the Assumptions and how they were talking about the people was, was really shocking to me, and so we can do better and we need to do better.
Do you have anything about the workplace or transitions, leaving employee relationships, any of that, that people might be shocked or surprised to hear you say there's, I will, I will say there's probably. a good amount of people who are thinking about leaving their jobs right now at any particular time.
And based on the time of the year that we are recording this, it is November, December. People are not, they are planning on leaving. They are not leaving because it is the holidays. They've got vacation time booked. They've got plans. They don't want to have income instability, but you bite your bottom dollar.
If you, and I'm going to out people on this. If you see some people having lots of. Random doctor's appointments on their calendars, dentist appointments. All of a sudden in January, there was a company that I interviewed for. And I was just like, okay, guys, if you don't give me this job, because you've now pulled me out of work three times, either I need to tell them I'm having a terrible disease or I'm pregnant right now, because those are the only two things that I could have missed a few weeks in a row about.
But also, I mean, that's a horrible part, right? You can't say that I'm interviewing for another job. And also I would say, so funny because people are like, Ooh, counter to stay in your organization. And I'm like, then you'll get that scarlet letter written on you, right? Like, and that's just, you don't want to be that person in your organizations.
The fact that, you know, that we can't have these conversations, I think it's ridiculous. I think that is completely ridiculous. And organizations. You should be rewarding people who say that they want to stick around and they want to do more and they want to do better with you. And if you're not hearing that, if you're not listening to that.
If you have your blinders on about that, then people are going to leave you and that's going to be what happened. I imagine a world, and as you were talking, where we could go to our managers to say, instead of bringing you a counter after I have gone through interviews, I would rather not do that. And I'd rather, if you want to stay, of course, I'd rather come to you now and ask what's, what are the opportunities.
But you're right, we're not having those conversations. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you'd like to share. Yeah, I think it's time for just a cultural revolution and how we think about work and life. And I feel like there's so many companies that are, that are trying to return things to the old pre COVID way, but we should be waking up about what work is and what work isn't and how people operate and function.
I haven't looked up the stats yet, but I know a lot of people did exactly what I did, which is like. Huh. Not getting taken care of in my company. I can go make my own money. Oh, wait, I can go build my own business. Oh, wait, I can have, you know, employees that I take from places, you know, I mean, a few of them, I've worked with them in other capacities and they're like, wow, like you can, I can really come and work with you.
And I'm like, yeah, you do a really cool thing that I really need right now in signing on. And I've told my team this multiple times, y'all will be the BPs. Chief whatevers of your respective category when we build this thing that is super cool and Does not operate the way that things traditionally have operated.
So, and I will if challenge folks, if you are thinking about it right now, about leaving to another organization, think about what it would be like if you started your own and come talk to me, if you want some advice on how to do that. I love that thinking around if you have that gut feeling that you could do this on your own, let it be a bigger conversation with yourself.
Let it be a bigger conversation with Ashlan. Reach out and ask for some advice because it does not have to be the way it has been in the past. You're so right. My last question for you is, what does leaving well mean to you? Leaving well means that you have taken the intentional time to set people up to almost like lessen the blow of you leaving.
So, you know, like I had talked about That documentation, that real intentionality of creating a space that you could go back to if you needed to and leaving a strong impression with folks like, she left but she's not a total asshole to me, you know, like, it could have been worse. But it is. I think that's the quote, Ashlan.
She left, but she wasn't an asshole. That's what Leaving Well is. I think that's great. Yeah, yeah, true that. I wasn't a total jerk about it, so. Right. Thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. Thank you for being a business owner who Is human centered and human first in the work that you do.
Thank you, Naomi, for having me. To learn more about Leaving Well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace, visit naomihattaway.com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system.
We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide, to shift culture, and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host, Naomi Hattaway and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.