56: Amy Freitag on New Perspectives and Workplace Transitions
Amy Freitag became president of The New York Community Trust in July 2022. For the prior eight years, she was executive director of the J.M. Kaplan Fund, a 75-year-old family foundation based in New York City. During her tenure, she initiated the J.M.K. Innovation Prize and led grantmaking in criminal justice reform, climate change, democracy, and historical conservation, including several Civil Rights sites.
Freitag previously was executive director of the New York Restoration Project, which led a private effort to plant one million new trees in New York City. Prior to that, she was the U.S. program director for the World Monuments Fund and deputy commissioner for capital projects with the New York City Department of Parks and Recreation.
She served on the NYC Mayoral Advisory Commission on City Art, Monuments, and Markers and currently sits on the board of the James Marston Fitch Charitable Foundation.
Freitag was raised in Akron, Ohio, and holds an A.B. from Smith College and master’s degrees in landscape architecture and historic preservation from the University of Pennsylvania.
Main quote: The best leaders I know always want the organization to thrive well past their ambition. The organization will go to new places, and we all have certain gifts that we bring to an organization, and no one person can lead an organization forever. It gets richer with different leadership.
Additional Quotes: If we don't listen and adjust, we may not be as effective as we want to be. It’s super hard, and it sounds really basic, but I actually think listening is one of our biggest superpowers that we have to lean into to really maximize and optimize.
To learn more about Leaving Well, visit https://www.naomihattaway.com/
To support the production of this podcast, peruse my Leaving Well Bookshop or buy me a coffee.
This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
Transcript:
In this episode with Amy Freitag, we talk about the reality that she is the fourth leader and only the second woman to run a specific organization in over 100 years. It's powerful to hear Amy talk about the requirement that there's a balance of patience and new perspective when you start something new.
She also talks during our interview about being really specific about understanding what has caused the conditions. It's not. She talks about the thickness of change, which is a really, really interesting perspective that I've not heard before. She also talks about the importance of philanthropy, working as a cohort to get things done.
I think that's really powerful and I'm excited for you to hear this conversation. We talk a lot about circles of reputation. We talk a lot about trust. We also talk a lot about the best tool that Amy thinks there is. Which is listening. Enjoy the conversation.
Amy Freitag became president of the New York community trust in July of 2022. For the prior eight years, she was the Executive Director of the J. M. Kaplan Fund, a 75 year old family foundation based in New York City. During her tenure, she initiated the J. M. K. Innovation Prize and led grantmaking in criminal justice reform, climate change, democracy, and historical conservation, including several civil rights sites.
Freitag previously was Executive Director of the New York Restoration Project, which led a private effort to plant one million new trees in New York City. Prior to that, she was the U. S. Program Director for the World Monuments Fund and Deputy Commissioner for Capital Projects with the New York City Department of Parks and Recreation.
Amy served on the New York City Mayoral Advisory Commission on City Art, Monuments, and Markers, and currently sits on the board of the James Marston Fitch Charitable Foundation. Amy was raised in Akron, Ohio, and holds an A. B. from Smith College and Master's Degrees in Landscape Architecture and Historic Preservation from the University of Pennsylvania.
Amy, I'm so glad to be talking with you. Thrilled to be here, and thank you so much for inviting me to talk about this stuff. I think it's so interesting, and it's a real pleasure to be here. So I'm going to jump in with the first question, which is to ask what three words or maybe it's a phrase, how would you use to describe your relationship to change or transition?
Well, I've been thinking about it a lot of late, you know, I'm only the third leader of the New York Community Trust in a hundred years. Wow. So that means I'm only doing the third transition for this organization in a hundred years. And that is no small thing. So I think a lot about change and transition every day.
So I guess, um, I've been thinking about most recently, cause I have a colleague who's just joined the team and we talk a lot about. Finding balance. I think it's finding a balance between patience on the one hand because an institution like this has so much depth, right? So much information. We work in a constellation rich with people and often people who are closest to the issues that we're trying to address.
So you have to do so much absorbing and learning what has caused the conditions to come about that we're currently addressing, whether that's internal within this organization or more globally within the eight counties. That we serve, we serve 12. 4 million people from Westchester to the east end of Long Island.
So I think having real patience for learning and respect for understanding how these configurations came to be, but you have to balance that with this like fresh perspective right and this ambition to want to act on. This extraordinary moment of change, right? So I think you have to constantly find the balance between patients and this fresh eyes, this, this, this new perspective that we bring.
There's no special sort of prescription on how you find that balance. But I think in every instance, it's really incumbent upon us. Not to just act because it sounds like a good idea, but really to understand the context of all the things that we want to change so that we change them intelligently and with long value to the organization.
Well, I think of a couple of things as you were talking being the third leader in over 100 years fourth leader, but third transition, because the first one was the founder, and then he changed to another guy. And that guy turned to my predecessor so now I'm the third. The second woman interestingly in 100 years to run the institution.
So that's, you know, a lot of history. Is held by my predecessors. There's so much history and held by so few is what's interesting to me and I think about when you're talking about the balance of patience and fresh perspective. Sometimes it's easy to either do things we've always done or to completely change everything because we are, you know, inviting in change.
Um, I also thought it was really powerful when you said that you have to be looking at what has caused the conditions of the work that you're doing and the communities that you're serving. And I would love to know if there is. Something that you would say to the person listening who might be in their own space of systems change that may be struggling with how to show up at work every day and being confronted with needing to address and, and change the conditions.
Yeah. Well, look, I think interestingly, as we know throughout all kinds of sectors post COVID, there was this great resignation, right? The great resignation. And interestingly, that great resignation also turned out to exist in community philanthropy. So among Let's just call it the top 40 community foundations community foundations in terms of asset size over 50 percent of us are new in our seats in the last 24 to 36 months, and sector wide there 800 community foundations across the country.
And among that whole sector, so large, small, rural, urban, tremendous amount of new leadership. And I've had the privilege of sitting in rooms with several of these fellow new leaders of community foundations. And some of the things we talk about are the thickness of change and just how hard it is. to hold that balance that I spoke of.
It's like owning what's there and wanting to change things. And I think community around that work and recognizing that there's no perfect answer to these questions, but to work really hard and really lean into the moment as being both rich with opportunity, but also I always, you know, it's kind of my joke and lots of the institution where we talk about evolution, not revolution, and that what we're trying to do is evolve this organization, but I don't have 32 years to lead this institution, so I can't beat that.
to patient, right? I want to consistently move forward. And what I often do is lean on these peers and other institutions. How are you solving that problem? I try to really build community with these folks that are going through this experience at the same moment that I am. I think we are truly stronger together.
And as a group, we can challenge these sort of constructs of what Has always been community philanthropy and maybe push a little bit more in the space of innovation as a cohort, rather than one person trying to do that on their own unity. I think is the community and community. Philanthropy is certainly been a joy for me.
I also know, and we might, we won't, we won't have time to go into all of this with the details, but I also know that you spend a lot of time getting very close to close with the problem when we're thinking about systems change. And you also. Build relationships and trust with the folks that are closest to the problem.
And that feels a really powerful part of this as well. Just knowing that you're not just sitting in a space of holding power, both within systems change within furthering the community trust work that you're doing, but also relationship. And Understanding how it's impacting folks that y'all are meaning to serve and intending to serve.
Yeah, I think one of the things that I've come to learn, I guess, with over the years and various roles is that I used to think, especially when I was younger, it's like, don't people understand that I'm. They can trust me. I'm here to help, right? That doesn't just happen. It does take time. And, and we think deeply about the word trust.
It's in our name, but the, why would somebody leave you their legacy for the next hundred years? Unless they really trusted you. And they're not going to just trust you because You're at the New York Community Trust. You actually have to build a relationship. And I do think, you know, in some of the work and especially referencing some of the work that I did in family philanthropy, it, it, it took years and time and experience together for the family that I worked with to really trust me enough to let us go down some new paths and explore new ideas.
And. That just doesn't happen overnight and you have to have patience for that kind of relationship development to occur. I feel that internally here at the trust with many of my colleagues have worked here for over three decades. So it takes some time to build. Them to understand how much I respect their tenure and for them to know that they can trust me that I'm not going to pull the rug out from underneath them.
So it takes time. And as much as we'd love to put an accelerant on that in some way and make it go faster. You know, it's a human thing. It's we work at the pace. of trust, and we work at the pace of relationship. And, you know, when you're trying via Community Foundation for 12. 4 million New Yorkers across eight counties, that's a whole lot of relationship to build.
But I do believe that it is, it is actually, that's the work is building out circles of relationship and trust. Is there one particular process or something that you found really helpful as you navigated between or from, or to any of the new organizations or projects that you've been involved with? So I think one of the best tools, one of the best talents, and I'm not perfect at it by any measure, is just listening.
I just try really hard every day to just listen, and I have to really bridle my enthusiasm to want to talk. And just to listen, I'm surrounded by incredible intelligence and deep experience and passion for the work that we do. You know, you work in community philanthropy because you hold community as sacred.
It's rich with knowledge. It's rich with lived experience. You know, and if we don't really Listen carefully. We might not be as effective as we want to be, but it's hard. And so it's a practice that I work on literally every day because, you know, listening can really challenge your thesis, your foundational idea of what you wanted to do, and sometimes hard to let go of that.
But quite frankly, if we don't listen and really adjust, we may not be as effective as we want to be. So it's Super duper hard, and it sounds really basic, but I actually think listening is one of our biggest superpowers that we have to lean into and to really, um, maximize and optimize. I appreciate that you said listening and adjust.
I think that listening in and of itself is, is like you said, it's a practice and it's something that we have to continue to continuously work at, but the real, uh, Maybe the real schtick there is and adjusting when necessary because I find hard for myself. Yeah. What is it? There's somebody that said, you know, a great writer has to throw out some of their favorite ideas, right?
And, and boy, that's hard. And sometimes if you put them on a shelf over there, you can come back to them in some other way. But I think having the humility to adjust and to recognize that, um, the idea is going to be better and richer If it's got all of the elements of the, the additive pieces, I think of it as making like a really great stock or a really great soup.
It's never great with just one input, right? It needs multiple inputs. It often needs to brew for a little bit to really manifest all of Benefit of all of those inputs. And so I do think, you know, without being moving at the pace of molasses and winter, you do want to try to still have the richness of input to make the best possible decisions and to move the organization in a way that.
is going to have the best long term outcome. It goes back to what you said about moving at the speed of trust. In your past roles or in your experience with different organizations, especially as you talk about working inside of cohort and collaboration with others doing this work, what key things do you wish that organizations and leaders would implement and do more of or maybe less of?
When it comes to change leadership, holding space for innovation, those kind of things. Yeah, it's so interesting because I was just actually talking to a really learned, really spectacular colleague last week, who was starting to think about their own transition and how their prior transitions had not been in their mind as great as they want their final transition to be.
And that so much of that within a nonprofit organization is really honing that Relationship between a board of directors and staff. And that is magical. We know that the most effective organizations tend to be a really strong relationship between a chairman and a chief executive officer, but I would argue it's deeper and richer than that.
It really has to be the full board and the staff feeling like they're transitioning through this time together. I'm actually really fortunate that I came into my role. With a chairman and a former leader who took that transition super purposefully and, and actually plotted it out in a very thoughtful way.
And, and I think that has really accrued to the, my benefit and to the organization's benefit with my transition, they're different, right? The board sees the world as a board and the staff lives the daily life of the organization. And, you know, on the one hand. When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
We do it like this. And this is how we've always done it. Right. And so the board is trying to take that bigger view and that governance view and look boldly into the sort of opportunities, the higher level sort of questions about the organization. The staff is thinking about that, but also just working really hard to move forward on the mission every day.
You know, they need each other to make great decisions. I'm always really nervous when an organization doesn't want you to meet the staff or, you know, the staff doesn't have like any role at all in the conversation. And, you know, I think in that environment. In those types of transitions, there's that's fraught with peril, in a sense.
So I think having good harmonious, a really good relationship between at least the senior leadership and the board of directors and because often I think there's the sense that, you know, the, the existing leader doesn't want the organization to move past where they were. And I, you know, I will say that I think the best leaders I know.
Always do want the organization to thrive well past their ambition that that the organization will go to new and great places, and that we all have just certain gifts that we bring to an organization and it can't. No one person can lead an organization forever, right? It's always just like my stew. It gets richer with different leadership and that the board might be suspicious, right?
Like, if there is a sense that, oh, there's an, there, there is a way that the organization is working and it's, it's not going to be broad enough in its consideration if we don't. Take it to a, to a new audience or to a new place. So I just, I just think having a shared, shared values, even if it's not identical the vision between the staff and the board, but a really strong relationship and communal, a sense of together we are going to create.
To answer the question of where the leadership of this organization will go in the future. I'll use an example. It was a really fabulous organization that I think we all just adore that had really grown up and really evolved to a certain place. And I think the board really saw it as sort of magically in a new realm, but I think in the way that the board and the staff and the rest of, you know, and really the, the peer group around this organization still realized it was still that organization.
And when the board went out and sought that new leader that was taking it to this different and new realm. That person was out of context and out of, um, not necessarily in step with what the actual daily organization's life was. And it was just a misfit. And so it took a while for that organization to go through another leadership change before those two pieces aligned.
Well, I see that too often, I feel like. So anyway, I think, I think, Finding the balance of that is, is, would be great. And, and feeling like there's, um, shared purpose and shared sort of mission on, on transition between board and staff is one of the things I think is so important. That feels excellent to think about instead of saying that things are wrong fits.
It's just out of context when we think about new leadership coming in. And I also love that you were talking about doing the transition together with boards and staff in a way that fits. Every organization is going to be a little different, but you think about who's responsible to keep the perpetuation of the mission going.
Everyone has their part to play, and we can't do it. isolating and oscillating separately. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, you know, I, look, I think there's, um, there are great examples of all kinds of transitions and you're right. Every, you know, we always joke about, this is true about a community foundation. It's true about a family foundation.
And when you've met one family foundation, you've met one family foundation, right? That these are people intensive enterprises. And as a result, The right methodology is different in every instance, but good communication and good respect among these groups is really going to accrue to the success of the transition.
And I, I think that a lot of the organizations that I work with, if they don't already have communication and respect as part of their board and staff relationship, there's no time like the present to start. If you're going through a transition, um, you can start working on those things today instead of just saying, well, we, we don't have it already, um, bring it in currently.
I think that's communication and, and, uh, respect are really huge. Is there something that you think that folks might be shocked to hear you say or surprised around? What we've been talking about, foundations, trusts, nonprofits, et cetera, and how we handle change and transition. Is there a big message or something that might be?
That harmony doesn't always exist and that that communication doesn't always exist. And, you know, I think one could argue that there is something in the fundamental structure of nonprofits that's somewhat challenging, which is that there is a group of people that wake up every morning. They do their job.
They're working really hard. Super hard. People generally go into this work because they are passionate and driven by the mission and that, you know, we often will say that our boards, you know, they've got whole other lives. They've got whole other jobs. Sometimes they're sitting on multiple boards and it's really rare.
To have board members who are so dialed in that they really understand all of those sort of circadian rhythms and all the details of all, and in a way you don't want them, we really don't want the board living in the day to day weeds, but finding that harmony between. The right balance of information that the board can really understand what it feels like how the how the organization is doing from a staff perspective from a mission perspective from a constituents perspective, but not feel like they have to get in there and answer all those little questions about what are going on every day.
So that that finding that harmony and that right balance between board and staff and governance and leadership is, I think, people, you know, They probably be surprised that it doesn't always that there isn't a magic, you know, sort of way to dial in on that. I think the other thing is there's nobody's perfect.
Right. So we shouldn't all be sort of hard on ourselves if we don't think we've struck the right leadership and governance balance. But it's something like you said, every day we should work on every day we think about. That's why transitions and boards are great. That's why transitions and staff are great.
It gives us constantly opportunities to refresh and reinvigorate those relationships that are so critical to the success of the organization. I'm glad that you brought that up because I feel like that's a non, it's not the popular thing to talk about when we think about transitions is board onboarding and offboarding.
And that's the most natural of it. Everyone has terms. And we don't, I don't see any way really great examples, or even just norms around the fact that board transition happens on a pretty regular basis. And it's something that I think we could also improve instead of just looking to staff and. Executive director or CEO transitions.
How can we also make that improvement around communication and respect? Um, you know, kind of eke into the board transitions as well. Yeah, we, we have a very small board at the New York Community Trust and, and it's, we love the. The closeness of that and the feeling that there is a real, a real relationship among the members.
I, you know, it's, it's so variable. I know the Lincoln Center, which dozens of people on that board. And I think they, their chief executive Henry Tims, who's such a smart guy has done a really remarkable job of building relationship with all of those folks. It's definitely, um, something that is a constant.
Area of focus, and I'm excited. We have a new board transition that happened at the new year and to really find ways that that that new chairman and our staff can find, you know, new ways of working together and ways of communicating and all with the goal of just making this community foundation the most impactful it can be for its second century of service to our to our incredible eight counties.
So, you know, Everybody, it's just that beautiful little alchemy of these different personalities coming together, different moments and different opportunities. I mean, clearly we're at a moment where we're in New York City is facing some pretty significant headwinds between a pretty extraordinary influx of newcomers to New York City.
Post COVID and a city that still hasn't fully gotten it sort of skipped back in its step coming out of the, um, out of the pandemic. So, so trying to find a way that this community foundation can meet this moment with this group of individuals, but this moment of donors in New York city and these needs of these nonprofits.
Is actually different than any other moment we've had, even though we've had a century of experience of work. So trying to find that right dialing. It's almost like tuning a fine instrument, right? What are the best ways that we can get the maximum sound out of this incredible community enterprise?
That's so beautiful. And I think that what a testament to your leadership that you bring, especially thinking back with the context of being the fourth leader and guiding the people that you have surrounding you through this and knowing that even in the fine tuning of the instrument, the weather can affect that.
The, you know, I'm just thinking of a symphony and as they tuned and so being prepared and being nimble and again going back to listening, um, paying close attention is really important. Is there anything that we have not covered before I ask you my final question that you'd like to talk about on this topic?
We could go all sorts of directions. I think people have such a different relationships with change. I know some of my colleagues in the field, uh, felt like, and I don't know if it's a gendered thing, right? I don't know if women approach, I'd be interested to know in all of the work you've done around change.
If you think gender, if you think age, if you think other kinds of sort of experiences you bring to the role. I feel like women lead differently than men. And I, I don't want to put a value on that because I think all, all leaders bring different gifts to the role. You know, I educated in a woman's college.
I I've been surrounded by fabulous women in my, in my whole career and fabulous men, you know, how, how we approach issues differently, I think is really fascinating and great. It's interesting to me that I think I remember there was a really great, uh, leader of my, uh, Smith college who. who wrote a book about women and autobiography and, and women will write about, you know, if a man writes autobiography, I did this, I did that.
I, I conquered this. I couldn't, you know, I did it all on my own. Um, I think women writing autobiography will often say, you know, uh, I was fortunate to have these people supporting me. I, you know, so I, I couldn't have done it without them. So I think there is a sort of different personality of women leaders.
And I, I honor the fact that I follow A woman that led a community foundation at a time when very few women were leading and what was that like and how hard was that and, and recognize and honoring that, but also honoring, you know, people of all genders and backgrounds that have like pushed the limits on what we think about as community founded philanthropy.
And I'm excited for a moment where there is a lot more diversity in the leadership of community philanthropy. So I don't know. I think that's an interesting topic of what does diversity mean in terms of leadership. And I will say, let me just say one other thing that I do think this is a moment, um, with all of these headwinds that I spoke of in New York City, coming out of COVID, there's a lag effect that's hitting our, our nonprofits.
It's hitting our arts organizations right now in a big way. We have promoted Some extraordinary leaders of color into leadership, organizing into leadership positions at a really, really hard moment. And I just feel like it's such an important moment for our nonprofit sector to really wrap our arms around those leaders and really support them through a pretty, really, really challenging moment and to really give them every opportunity to, to really shine and excel through this moment, because it is not for the faint of heart.
It's not an easy time to be running a nonprofit. So I feel pretty strongly that, um, if we've made this commitment to diversity, we have to be fully committed to the, to this cohort of new leaders and to make sure that they are given all the, all the support we can possibly muster at a time when there's just, if you read the New York Times yesterday, there's a sort of, Pessimism out there about what philanthropy can do and how are they going to help when it's homelessness.
It's affordability. These big intractable issues. Well, we've got some great people leading right now. Let's get behind them and help them be successful right now. Yeah. I appreciate that. And I think one of the things I was going to go back to when you were talking about how folks lead, is that when I help folks craft their final message or the message that goes out to their database, it is remarkably different based on I'm experience, gender, age, where they've worked at before, where they are heading to.
And it's always very interesting to just see what people put in those messages around whether it was, they felt like it was a solo effort, whether it was a cohort effort, whether it was community supported. Um, and I think just being able to see more folks start their transition, um, process and the communication process, knowing that it is.
An all together kind of a thing is really important and I love that you just mentioned that about supporting the diversity of philanthropy as well, because we won't, we won't get where we need to go if we don't, and it's, it feels like it's at a crux point for sure. Yeah, we have to build a bench. I mean, I think what we recognize is that we have, it's a, it's a long, it's a long game to get us.
But this is what I love about community philanthropy. It is the ultimate long game. But, um, that if we are serious about, meeting our mission and really doing the best for our communities. It's going to be incumbent on us to really invest a lot in future leadership to make sure that these, these kinds of institutions can really reflect the communities.
I mean, we have a long way to go with the New York Community Trust. Between just our senior leadership, our donor base, we have, there is so much more of New York that we can express in this place, and we have to be intentional about that, and we have to be purposeful, and we have to think about it all the time, and I think we're, we're, we're getting better and better and growing and growing, and I just think that that's, it's, it's, it doesn't get done overnight, but it's a long term commitment we have to make to this work, because that is what community philanthropy is all about.
I have a question that I did not prep you for, uh, but I would be curious when you talk about building a bench, what is your opinion or your thoughts on the idea of shared leadership inside of the nonprofit space? So I've seen that work really well. And of course, we've also seen experiences where it doesn't work well.
I had a fabulous. fabulous grantee that came to the JM Kaplan fund through the JMK Innovation Prize, ASAP, which is a organization led, founded and led by four women that was working on the space of immigrant asylum seekers, getting legal protection and, and creating an ecosystem of support around the asylum seekers.
And, you know, like when those guys came over, like, really Fordley, are you kidding? But you know what? They figured it out because they were passionate and it worked out. And I think also women of a certain age, someone's getting pregnant, someone's going out on maternity leave. They figured out a really seamless way to move the organization forward.
And I really respected that. Similarly, one of my favorite organizations in New York is an organization called Black Space. And black space is a collaborative. So it was birthed as a collaborative, like there is no captain. Ultimately, there are leaders within black space that move the organization forward and can be the sort of spokespeople for the organization.
But again, there was a lot of at the beginning, like head scratching, like how does that work? But you know what? It was what worked for that organization at that moment of creation. And it was such a brilliant stroke to create the organization. And I just think there. It is flashing yellow. I think for any funder, because it just seems like you know who's in charge, but having a little bit of flexibility to think about what's the right governance structure leadership structure for the right nonprofit.
It's not a cookie cutter thing organizations really are different, and they need different leadership modalities to make them, you know, to do their best work so they aren't typical. The atypical structures, but some of them have been brilliant, and so I try to be kind of open minded to hearing about why somebody feels like they need shared leadership and not just the traditional hierarchy of an organization.
Yeah, I love that and it goes back to again that right moment for what is needed right now. So that's been a consistent theme throughout this. My last question for you is what does leaving well mean to you. This is such a good question. I, um, and I know it's really the whole point we're here today. So I will say that I was, I was really touched when I sat down with my predecessor and her first words to me were, I don't succeed if you don't succeed.
You know, this idea that everyone here wants you to be successful, because it really is. It speaks to the success of the enterprise, right? And I want to do everything I can to help you be successful. I remember one of my favorite mentors was the woman who famously sort of founded the Central Park Conservancy and same, you know, really Transform Central Park, and I was always struck by she only stayed there for I want to say short of a decade, maybe a decade, and I was always struck by her leaving at that moment.
I'm like, well, you love that work like that's your work. That's your thing. And she's like, no, no, no, no, but it was never going to be successful. If I didn't leave, it had to be somebody else to succeed it. So, no matter how Transcribed Great. We think we are at our jobs and what gifts we bring. We never bring all the gifts that the organization needs and it's real.
Durability it's it's proof of success is it's endurance beyond the founder, beyond the, the longtime leader and that kind of. Humility and appreciation for the benefit of change and why change is healthy and good for an organization. I really think that's leaving. Well, just being humble and hoping to God that we set the stage right for the People that succeed us and that we can have done, you know, honor these seats by having moved the needle in some valuable way so that the next person can take it even farther and make it even better.
That, to me, is leaving well. Amy, this has been amazing and that's a really beautiful place to end. Thank you so much. Oh, well, thank you for asking the questions, right? And thank you for just being such a joy to speak with. I think it's a great topic and something, uh, you know, not everybody might quite understand how valuable it is, but it is kind of at the heart of what we do, right?
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. If you've not yet taken the Workplace Transition Archetype quiz to discover your natural relationship to change and transition, you can do that at NaomiHattaway.com/quiz. To learn more about leading well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace, visit NaomiHathaway.
com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide to shift culture and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host, Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.
