68: Amanda Misiko Andere on Knowing When it’s Time to Leave and Leaving Well
Amanda Misiko Andere leads with love and disruption. She has spent over twenty years working in the nonprofit and public sector as a leader committed to racial and housing justice through advocacy for systemic change.
Prior to joining Funders Together to End Homelessness as their CEO, she served as the CEO of Wider Opportunities for Women, a national advocacy organization. Currently, she serves as board chair of the United Philanthropy Forum and board member of Equity in the Center, Bainum Family Foundation, Philanthropy DMV, and Leadership Fairfax.
Amanda is a founding member and on the leadership team for the National Racial Equity Working Group on Homelessness and Housing and the National Coalition for Housing Justice. She also serves on the Leadership Council for the DC Partnership to End Homelessness and is a volunteer advisor for Fairfax County on their racial equity task force.
Previously she served as an adjunct professor at George Mason University teaching Nonprofit Management, Executive Director of FACETS, and Vice President of Cornerstones; who have similar missions of preventing and ending homelessness and breaking the cycle of poverty.
Main quote:
There can be comfort with change and transition because you discover things about yourself, your body, the people around you. It is truly the life learning mechanism to get you to a place of truer self to get us to justice and liberation.
Additional Quotes:
My purpose wasn't necessarily to lead the organization into its next iteration. I was very clear that my purpose was to lead a search and a process that was equitable and just and full of love and disruption. And to set things in place for this black woman leader to not only be successful and impactful, but transformational.
Leaving well means being absolutely aware of who you are in the moment and where you need to be and not be, and how to affect change for justice and liberation in a way that's uniquely given to you by whoever you believe in, God, world, the universe.
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This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley
Transcript:
Amanda Masico Andeary leads with love and disruption. She has spent over 20 years working in the nonprofit and public sector as a leader committed to racial and housing justice through advocacy for systemic change. Prior to joining funders together to end homelessness as their CEO, she served as the CEO of Whiter Opportunities for Women, a national advocacy organization.
Amanda Currently, Amanda serves as Board Chair of the United Philanthropy Forum and Board Member of Equity in the Center, Bain and Family Foundation, Philanthropy DMV, and Leadership Fairfax. Amanda is a founding member and on the leadership team for the National Racial Equity Working Group on Homelessness and Housing and the National Coalition for Housing Justice.
She also serves on the Leadership Council for the D. C. Partnership to End Homelessness and is a Volunteer Advisor for Fairfax County on their Racial Equity Task Force. Previously Amanda served as an Adjunct Professor at George Mason University teaching Nonprofit Management, Executive Director of FACETS, and Vice President of Cornerstones.
These all have similar missions of preventing and ending homelessness and breaking the cycle of poverty, and I'm thrilled to have this conversation with you, Amanda, um, to talk about your work. Relationship with change and transition. So that's actually where we'll jump first to ask you about your relationship to change and transition.
That is such an important question, Naomi, and I'm so excited to be with you today. So, I think my relationship with change and transition has definitely been evolving. And, like for most folks in their professional, volunteer, and just their personal life. Um, so, I'm thinking about this question, thinking about it.
If you would have asked me four years ago, I would have had a very different answer. If you would have asked me two years ago, I would have had a very different answer. So my relationship with change and transition right now is that I'm much more comfortable with it. I try to lean into it and accept it and know that as a part of Our path and journey in life.
It also is the thing that gives me the most anxiety or the thing that really does keep me up at night. Not because I'm afraid of it, not because I don't think we need it. Like we are in a revolutionary moment in our country, in our world. And so I'm thoughtful and hopeful about change and transition, but also know that comes with great pain.
It can come with a lot of conflict. I think the framing that our country holds around polarization is really around change and transition. And so like, I'm trying to think about how do we rename what's actually happening? And so there is, there can be comfort though, with change and transition because you discover things about yourself, your body, the people around you.
It is truly the life learning mechanism to get you to a place, I think, of truer self, to get us to justice and liberation. I love that. I love especially the thought about it being both thoughtful and hopeful and also painful at the same time. What would you say to the person who's listening and is like, that sounds really great that it's thoughtful and hopeful.
Hopeful and that it's a necessary part of getting towards liberation and is like, but I don't know how to do that for myself. Is there something that you've learned about yourself? Maybe in the last year or two years that you would share with the person listening who might feel a little, I don't know, scared or nervous.
Yeah, well, just that I see that they're scared and nervous and so am I. And so when we think about this work of change and transition, we often start with ourselves, which is good, but I don't believe we can change and really reform alone. We do it in community. We can reflect, we can learn on our own, but the true transformation comes when we're in community.
So some of that nervousness and being scared is because the world or capitalism or whatever oppressive system tells you that you have to be on this journey alone. And you don't. I'm an ambiavert, so a mix between an introvert and an extrovert. So that doesn't, I'm not saying that you always have to be in community or there's no deep time for reflection.
But I think the nervousness comes because we've, lost what it means to be in community and hold these multiple things. And so I would say to the person nervous is find your people, find the people that you can wrestle with, that you can sit in silence with, find the people that you can be in community with after you've done your own reflection.
And it feels a little less scary. Yeah, there's also so much around trust, too, and when you're saying find your people, find the, find the folks that you trust and that you trust to also challenge you a little bit. I think that's a big part of change and transition is if you surround yourself by people who only are your biggest cheerleaders, uh, they might not help you shape how you navigate through change.
Absolutely. We often talk about in movements, principled struggle. And. We all have maybe the same goal in North Star, but wildly different strategies and approaches to how to get there. Yeah. And so I'm constantly surrounded by people that I want to be surrounded with because we hold the same values. We hold the same North Star, but we're radically different on how to get there.
Yeah. And we have radically different understandings about where we are in the moment. Um, and that pushes me. It helps me think about how I'm communicating things. It helps me think about how I'm understanding things. It helps me think about how I can be a better friend when I'm trying, when sometimes I'm pushing people as a colleague.
Like, so, there's also this idea that those of us who want justice and liberation and revolution, are not in rooms with people who disagree with us. Going back to my point about polarization and like we are, we have been for a really long time cause we're not a monolith, but that, that disagree, it's what we're disagreeing on is what's so critical to the conversations we're having.
Yeah, that makes me think of a I mean, it feels like a really great segue kind of into the next question, which is around your previous powerful statement with a specific conference where you stated that you wanted to be really intentional about passing the mic during their Well, Scheduling of you on their stage as keynote and to give speeches, and it just it reminds me of that because if we're only hearing from the same people, we don't have the full expansiveness of other people's thoughts.
So I'd love if you could talk a little bit about that and where that's been maybe a source of friction or what you're currently learning about that whole idea of passing the mic or sharing the stage, I guess, is another way we could we could say it. Yeah, I like passing the mic and sharing the stage depending on the moment.
So thank you for that question. So for those listening, just some short background. I've been involved in the housing justice movement at Funders Together for a long time, over eight years. But in those eight years, probably six months after I started, been on a journey with some other co conspirators, uh, to really embed racial equity and racial justice into the conversations we're having around ending homelessness and housing affordability.
And that took an incredible amount of emotional, physical labor. And I think because of my position and relationship to philanthropy was always like asked to be on certain plenary stages at a particular conference, the National Alliance to End Homelessness Conference. But quite frankly, because there wasn't a lot of leaders of color, black leaders in the space, um, folks really talking about racial equity.
It was really important for them to have my voice and some other folks voice in the conversation. And thankfully, I can say eight years later, that has changed. Like, the people of color, the Black leaders were always there, they just weren't necessarily given a platform or standing in the power that was rightfully theirs.
And I felt this real inflection point last summer when I was asked to speak at this particular conference that happens twice a year. That's 99. 9 percent of the time I'm usually asked to, uh, speak at just have this moment of, I don't know that I have anything more to say, like the thing that I want to say, I've been saying in trying to figure out how to say in different ways, and I've said it all.
I've said it all to this audience and more importantly, it's time for me to model what I've been speaking about, like sharing power and giving up the mic. And so while it was really hard and like for me to step to say at a, at a plenary on stage, this is the last time I'll be on this stage. It was probably one of the more important things I've, I've done.
I don't get, I got some interesting feedback about it for sure. Just this conference happened just this past, uh, July, early July. And you know, the two questions I get in the hallway, when are you speaking? Or why aren't you speaking anymore? We still need your voice. There's still people who need to hear it.
This conference has people that are like 50 percent of the conference are new people. They need to hear your voice. So there's a lot of mixed emotions in that because you, as a human being, we love to be appreciated, right? And that's okay. Like, there's ego and leadership and that's fine. And then there's still, like, that real desire to, to recognize the importance of you, like, standing on, standing on business, as the kids say, and, and really sharing power and passing the mic.
And it opened up the opportunity for organizers to be on stage for, for this particular organization to be thoughtful about, uh, who they're asking to speak and why, and they were already on that journey. Um, but this opened it up more for that. And I just wanted to model that. What's really interesting for those listening, I am a black woman.
I've maybe alluded to that a couple times. The most important part of that speech for me was that I was saying to white leaders or leaders of color who aren't black, like, what are you doing to step down? As a black woman, I'm recognizing that. And I still haven't seen that reflection, right? Like I still have to remind white leaders in this space that they need to step back and, and be more thoughtful and intentional about when they step up.
And so my message was really to them, but I don't know that they fully got it. And so I get the leaders of color who they're the ones stopping me in the hallway saying, we still need you. So it's been interesting. And yet I still stand by the decision. And, um, There's not to say there won't be a moment where I won't, wouldn't come back, but we have to start to, part of leaving or transition or change is to daily evaluate why, why you, why now, and not just to do the things we've always done, uh, and that's really hard for individuals and organizations.
I love so many different things that you said because there's such a huge correlation or a line that you can draw straight across to leadership inside of organizations. And I think that the one thing that you said, of course, is, you know, modeling behavior for others. It's I'm, I'm thinking it's funny.
I'm laughing about it. Like I had a smile on my face when you said it, but then it's also not funny at all. When you said that the people who you maybe most were talking to have been the ones that maybe haven't. Yeah. Got the message, which I think is so unfortunately true across a lot of things. One of the things that I thought that was interesting was that you said it on stage.
And I think that a lot of folks might. Say, well, I've left a thing or I've stepped back or I've shared power, but they haven't communicated it as such. And so I think that's really powerful. I just wanted to highlight the fact that you said it to the attendees. I think it was also shared across social media, which is how I found out about it.
And that's powerful. And I think that's a big piece of when you do decide to step back, step aside, being really intentional and thoughtful about how you say it and and whom you say it to. Can you talk a little bit more about the why, you mentioned that at the end, and that daily question, how has that, and maybe this is a good segue then into talking about leaving board service, when did you know or when have you known that it's time to step aside in terms of leaving?
Holding a role or holding a title. Yeah, that's a very as as they say in the black church you on my street right now. Um, because I'm constantly evaluating that in my current role in a lot of leadership positions. There was just something about that moment as I sat down to write the speech that said, and I was trying to figure out how to say differently what I've been saying and not that I don't think we repeating the, the, the hard truths or repeating where we are is, is not important.
We often need to hear things many times. Preaching to the choir is a good thing. The choir needs practice and rehearsal and to come together. So I'm not one of those folks that doesn't believe in that. It just felt like the right moment. It felt like there was of course, this energy about speaking again in public after the pandemic.
And, you know, I wanted to be in those spaces. I missed that energy from the audience. And the National Alliance and Homeless Conference is, is my home. Like that's where I started on this racial equity journey. Professionally, there was just this small voice that said to me, like, this is okay, Amanda, this is it.
It's okay to pass the mic, like for real, for real. So it wasn't any like real big process. I did not consult my staff or my board, or even the CEO of the Alliance, who was super close. friend and colleague. I just knew it was right because I've been doing the work to reflect on like what's needed in the moment.
And so that's what led me to that decision in in the board service that you have had in the past currently have. Has there been and I know that you recently stepped down from a board. Has there been any correlation to other leaving and other change and other transition things really? Match the experience that you had when it was when you decided it was time to step down from the board.
Is that was that a whole new thing for you? And I'm asking this question because I think there's folks listening. I know there's folks listening who are in a position, whether it be board service or leadership at a nonprofit, and they know it's time to step down and there's something holding them, whether it's legacy, whether it's things that they maybe feel are undone.
And I just like your answer. input and feedback on your experience of stepping down from a board and what lessons that you might have learned. Yeah. So hopefully your, your organization, if you're serving on a board, or if you're running an organization has structural mechanisms that allow Force and allow people to step out.
Hopefully that's the case. But I know actually many organizations actually when I took over funders together, we did not have such mechanisms, even though we're now 13 years old. We had to put that in place a few years ago. So part of me stepping down, uh, from board chair at United Philanthropy Forum is actually an interesting story because I actually stayed with A year plus too long.
When I say too long, we were going through our own CEO transition. And as a part of that, I committed to see that transition through. So what our bylaws technically allowed for the chair to stay to extend their term during situations like this, which I think is really good when you think about transition, there has to be some continuity of leadership.
And this allowed me to do that, but I could. feel in my heart as we got down to the end of, you know, the past CEO announcing they were leaving and then me chairing the selection committee and going through that whole process. There was a moment where I was so grateful that we had bylaws that said, okay, enough.
And it's not because I was less committed to the work. It's not because I wasn't. So excited and wouldn't have, I would give anything to be the board chair for our new CEO, the first person of color, the first black woman to lead the United Philanthropy Forum. Like what a dream team for the both of us as two black women to be side by side.
But that also was just this moment of like, you were born or meant to be in this position to hand off, to literally hand the baton off, right? And so sometimes leaving or stepping down or being okay with stepping down, right? So I had to be okay because it would have taken a lot of maneuvering for me to stay, although there was lots of jokes about me staying.
And there was even some serious conversations about like, do we need more transition time? As a board, as an executive committee, should I show in some ex officio role. But you have to be okay with, with leaving or being asked to leave or forced to leave when you are really in touch with your purpose. And so for me, my purpose wasn't necessarily to lead the organization into its next iteration.
I was very clear that my purpose was. To lead a search and a process that was equitable and just and full of love and disruption and to set the things in place for this, this black woman leader to not only be successful and impactful, but transformational. And so you, you can be okay with it when you realize your purpose might be to get a place, an organization, a thing to a certain point, or your purpose is really about the relationships that you build and form, and less about like the completion of something.
And that's really hard in our work, is to recognize that your leadership might not get you to the, to the end. Yeah, I recently led a workshop and. Use the example of a baton race. You know, it's, I think about, you know, the, the people who start the baton relay race are not the good finishers. They're not the people that are meant to help hold the middle of that race.
And they're definitely not the people that are best for that last run. And I know it's so hard for leaders to accept that they're, especially for founders or especially for the first board, um, the, the members that hold that first, those first board seats, not everyone's meant to stay forever. And not everyone, um, has what it takes for the organization for what they'll need.
And I love that you talked about purpose because I think values is another thing that people forget to check in with when it comes to making decisions around staying or going. I'd be curious what you would say about how values have helped direct your decisions and your growth in terms of change and transition.
That's such a good question. And it's not that my values have evolved. I think they've just been sharpened and they get clary when you're actually asked to practice your values. So, that's the hard part about values, like I can say a lot of things, I can feel and believe a lot of things, but when it's put into practice.
So I'll give another example of transition and leaving. Actually before I came to Funders Together to End Homelessness, I led a national organization, my first national organization around women's economic security. And we went through a really tough time where we, we had to, I had to make the decision that we needed to close wind down and transfer programs and all those things that happen when you take over an organization and realize it's not what it, what it should be or can be.
Uh, and in that moment, my ego and all the things I'd built my career on, like being a fixer. was tested because it was in conflict with my values that said Leaders are meant to say and reflect the hard things Leadership is not about staying to the end Uh leadership is about making the the tough decisions that are not going to be popular that will let people down And leadership is also admitting when maybe you've Failed, or maybe you didn't have all the information to make the best decision for yourself, for your organization.
And I like went through a real bout of depression and uncertainty in my life at that moment, because I felt like making this decision would change the trajectory of my success in Korea. And yet, like I had to lean on my values. I couldn't lean on my own understanding and myself in that moment. And it ended up to be the great lesson for me as a leader, the right thing for the organization that people involved.
It's what brought me to funders together to do the work that I've been longing and wanting to do. Gosh, it was so hard daily to say, like, I've. Long gotten over that, but when I, every time I think about it, I just remember like the times when it was really hard to get out of bed and like do the tough work of, of shutting down an organization.
And feeling very, very lonely. And so my values of even community were tested in that moment. Who is, who are my community, if, if, if not the people that I'm leading within an organization. Especially when, thank you for sharing that. That's so powerful. And I think about, You know, especially when we are all typically so mission connected to the work that we're doing, not a lot of us get into nonprofit work if we're not connected to the mission and sometimes part of that mission, you know, it's we always have these big grandiose mission, vision and values for the organization.
You know, I will end this thing or together. We will eradicate such and such. And so to quit or to fail or to end or to wrap something up, There's a lot of, I think, reflection that happens around, but we didn't, we didn't solve the thing, we didn't fix the thing. And I'm so thankful that you have the example, and again, modeling behavior, of sometimes things do need to shut down, and we need to pass the baton to another organization, or to, you know, another way of doing programming.
So if you're listening, and you're, you also have that gut feeling of something needing to end, um, know that there are other examples of sunsets and mergers of nonprofits, um, That could be explored. So I'm appreciative for you for sharing that. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything that you haven't shared yet that I haven't asked you about when you think about all of your expertise and experience around organizational structure and health, whether it's from the board viewpoint or whether it's from the leadership viewpoint that someone might need to hear when it comes to leaving a thing?
Yeah, so I'm in the middle of thinking about My own life trajectory right now. Our organization just established a sabbatical policy. So I plan to go on sabbatical, uh, at the end of the year and I'm, I've taken a lot of breaks and rest because that's a part of our culture at funders together to end homelessness.
I've also experienced a tremendous amount of grief. I lost my mom over two years ago. And so feel like I've had cycles of breaks, but I've never taken a true sabbatical and I'm preparing my heart for it more than I'm preparing the organization for it. Uh, we are, we, I think we are prepared as an organization, but this last This past week we were supposed to be on a week of rest and something happened in the news and in the housing movement and I, you know, dutifully got on my email to like figure things out and I had this moment of, oh Amanda, like when you're on sabbatical you can't do that.
Not so much for yourself but to model for other folks in your organization and in the movement what real rest looks like. So I have this moment of realizing I need to prepare my heart, um, and my physical body response because I'm, you know, I'm going to hear news. I'm going to be on social media, maybe when I'm on sabbatical.
And so I'm going to see things that I'm going to think about from an organizational standpoint, and that's going to be really hard. And I think that's part of the journey. Um, we get so caught up when we're Thinking about transition and like this structural ways that we need to leave and writing a bunch of lists and not preparing our hearts.
And so that's what I would say is the one thing. Love to leave people with is prepare your heart. Thank you for bringing that up. I've got more questions about it. Are you in this sabbatical that you're talking about? Because I think there's kind of, well, maybe two main ways that you could sabbatical. You could, um, have a working sabbatical where you're going to learn something new or being in a new environment and one where you are resting from the work.
Is it the latter that you're, you have upcoming? Yeah, the point is really to rest from the work. And for me, it is also the time away to think about what's next and what's next could be, okay, more time with funders together, what's next could be, maybe it's time for me to have a, have a thoughtful journey towards transition.
What's next could be thinking about the ways that I could step up and lead, um, in or outside my organization, but primarily for rest, because I don't know that you can think. About what is possible unless you have the spaciousness. And so it's not just resting my body, which is super important, but resting my mind to be in that constant responsive decision making.
leading role. I think it would be naive of me to say that I'm going to not think about work or the work or my purpose or like the mission, but I'm not going to think about it in a way that's like, that I have to lead on. And that's, what's going to be different. And you won't be in your email. Yes. That's the most important thing.
I will not be in my email or Slack or any device allow me to connect with people to say that a thing should happen. Yes. And so. To prepare my heart to trust that like My team's got it. People have got it because they really do. Yeah. Yeah. For, for the person listening, who's like, that sounds amazing. And they hear you saying, you're going to have to work to prepare your heart and prepare yourself.
They might be saying, we have no such thing as a sabbatical policy at our organization. Is there anything that you would give as a tip or a trick for someone who's just starting to think about that and maybe ways that. I don't want to say a mini sabbatical, um, but ways that they could start smaller without having a policy or having a team that's ready to take on that leave, uh, set the set of duties.
That's a great question. So, because of our intentionality around rest and community care, not just self care, we had been kind of practicing this, like, mini sabbatical for a while. Like, people's Stuff in people's lives just came up, and our leave policy is insufficient, most people's leave policies are insufficient, so we've been, without a formal policy, just practicing a way to give people two weeks or a month, um, and figuring out ways to cover, we're a small team, we're eight people.
And I get not everyone has the privilege or organizational privilege to do what we're doing, but we hope to model what it could look like we built into our sabbatical policy. Actually, a 1st step that says. After I think two years, you can get four weeks worth of rest. So recognizing that part of sabbatical is not to reward you rest, like rest is, is our birthright.
It, and it's to prevent the burnout that creates this cycle in the nonprofit industrial complex. So I would say like, why not practice two weeks maybe? Of just total absence of presence from your organization and see how it works and who could tap in and fill in. Um, why not put a policy in place that starts at four weeks, not the full, maybe three months or six months that some people hold as a sabbatical.
It's really important to think about overlapping leadership models and, and, you know, continuing operations, cross training all that, that technical stuff, but I think starting somewhere. I think even asking people to take a real vacation could be the start and testing that out for your heart. But I just would implore people to think about it as a way to strengthen your organization, because if not, it all falls on you.
And that is, that is still part of our DNA, I think, as an organization. I'm very, I'm very aware that a part of who we are as a, as an organization is because of me. It depends on me and my voice and like what I bring to the table. And that's okay. And it's not okay at the same time. And so be thoughtful about that and think about little ways that you can step back that would allow people, because the thing is, it's going to happen.
Like something in our lives will happen that will pull you away. And what an awful time to practice rask and panning over the person when you're in the face of tragedy and chaos. Yeah, I love that you said you said practice. I don't know. I didn't count, but a lot. And I think that's maybe not intentional, but it probably is.
For knowing you, um, I think you have to practice and practicing means getting it wrong. Practicing means doing it messy. And I think what a beautiful way to practice to see who steps in. I often will talk to clients about, um, you know, before you can cross train or before you can do any kind of knowledge transfer, you first need to go back to the skill sets and the capacity of the team that you have.
And you might be surprised by who can step in and do something to support the team. I also think it was really important when you were talking about preparing for the sabbatical. And I think about ways that maybe, you know, as you get emails leading up to your sabbatical, looping someone in on that email and say, I am, I have a period of rest coming up.
I want to make sure to introduce you to so and so on my team. That can also help build that trust bridge between the team member. Who will be called on to do it later? And I would, I would challenge the person who's listening, who might sit on a board or be in a leadership or a decision making role to really ask, especially if you're a board member, has the ED taken an actual vacation?
And if they have not bring that up to the rest of the board members and see what you can do about that. Because that is one of the things I think that's missing a lot in governance conversations with boards is, how's our ED, how's our leadership team doing? And when was the last time they actually took a vacation?
A real vacation. Yeah. Not a I'm going to check email on vacation. Yeah. And again, that vacation then can act as a practice. What came up? What was messy? What did we not plan for? Who stepped in, um, all those things were great. I think there's another, a bigger conversation maybe for another, another day, uh, about funding sabbaticals.
For organizations who may freak out about that thought as well. Um, but like you said, practice slow. And, and I think also, you can practice quietly too. You can just say, I would like you to take a week. On. the heels of your vacation, and we're going to practice what a sabbatical could look like. And that's not a, that's not as scary of a funding conversation, I think, from a budget standpoint.
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, some of it is, is a resource conversation as much as it is a practice conversation. But then practice having that conversation with your funders and, and supporters about what could be possible. And you would be surprised. Like, I really thought we would have to do this from our own resources.
And then a funder said like, Oh, we really, this is actually what we really want to do and support. And I get it. I have a proximity to philanthropy. That is not the same as other folks. But part of the reason why we practice and model is so our members who are doing grantmaking in communities can hold that intentional values as they're thinking about it.
So they can ask their grantee partners, the ED, when's, when's the last time you had real list? And maybe there's something we can do to facilitate that. I love that, and I think it brings to mind that we'll make sure to put in the show notes some examples of funders and organizations who are intentionally doing that work of funding sabbaticals and have a policy in place for their grantees, because I think it's helpful to see other examples of when it's working.
Um, so that's great. Yeah. Amanda, what does leaving well mean to you? Leaving well means to me Being absolutely aware of who you are in the moment and where you need to be and not be and how to affect change for justice and liberation in a way that's uniquely given to you by whoever you believe in. God, world, the universe.
And that's what Leaving Well means to me. Amanda, thank you so much. It's, it goes without saying, but I want to say it out loud. Thank you for all the impact and your leadership, um, that you give to the organizations that you're a part of and to the people that surround you and are in your universe. And thank you for this conversation.
Thank you for having me. If you've not yet taken the Workplace Transition Archetype quiz to discover your natural relationship to change and transition, you can do that at naomihattaway.com/quiz. To learn more about leading well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace, visit NaomiHattaway.com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide to shift culture and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host, Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.