02: Shannon Watts, Moms Demand Action Founder, on Leaving Well
Shannon Watts is widely known as a “summoner of women’s audacity.” As the Founder of Moms Demand Action, Watts was named one of Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential People, a Forbes 50 over 50 Changemaker, and a Glamour Woman of the Year. She is the author of Fight Like a Mother: How a Grassroots Movement Took on the Gun Lobby and Why Women Will Change the World.
This episode was recorded one week before Shannon’s final speech to the Moms Demand Action volunteers and supporters at the annual GSU (Gun Sense University). During our conversation, Shannon shares about the decision to leave her role of the organization, as Founder, and her experience of processing the transition away from that very public-facing role.
“Leaving Well means doing it without doing harm, and with integrity. That means asking others to hold you accountable.”
Additional quotes from Shannon:
“Even though I worked very hard to not have founder’s syndrome, it didn’t mean that my identity wasn’t tied up in the organization. Who am I without this?”
“You don’t have to do the work to completion, you just need to be a part of the work.”
“As much as you can, leave knowing you’ve protected yourself and the work you’ve done, that’s the most we can ask for.”
To connect with Shannon:
Purchase her book: Fight Like a Mother
Follow her writing on Substack
Follow her on Instagram
To learn more about Leaving Well, click here.
My Bookshop.org Leaving Well library has many resources to support your workplace transition journey!
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This podcast is produced by Sarah Hartley.
Transcription:
“For me, the founder role was going to be finite. I would ask myself that. Several times a year in times of crisis and in times of serenity. But I wanted to make sure I was always thinking about the answer to that question.” -Shannon Watts
This is Leaving Well, where we unearth and explore the realities of leaving a job, role, project, or title with intention and purpose, and when possible, I'm Naomi Hattaway your host. I will bring you experiences and lessons learned about necessary endings in the workplace with nuanced takes from guests on topics such as grief, confidence, leadership, and career development.
Braided throughout will be solo episodes sharing my best practices and leaving well framework. Expect to be inspired. Challenged and reminded that you too can embed and embody the art and practice of leaving well, as you seek to leave your imprint in this world.
My guest today is Shannon Watts. Shannon is the founder and full time volunteer with the nation's largest grassroots group fighting against gun violence, Moms Demand Action, which has chapters in every state affecting change at the local, state, and national level.
Shannon was named one of Glamour's 2022 Women of the Year, is on the 2023 time 100 most influential people list, and most recently was listed on Forbes women's 50 over 50 list her book Fight Like a Mother: How a Grassroots Movement Took on the Gun Lobby and Why Women will Change the World was released in May of 2019.
Shannon, thank you so much for joining me for this discussion.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, let's get started. The first kind of obvious question is for me to ask you to share about your transition and your change story with MomsDemand.
You know, I started this organization really Having never been in organizing or politics, certainly not the nonprofit world, and I can remember a woman who helped me start Moms Demand Action said to me, and she was from Silicon Valley, where I think this is more of an issue, but she said, don't get founder syndrome.
And I didn't know what that was. I had to Google it. But what I realized was, it was this idea of someone who finds an organization, who starts an organization, and then their identity becomes so tightly interwoven that they can't undo that. And even when it's not the right thing for an organization, they can't separate themselves.
And as a practicing Buddhist, you know, this idea of ego and being self aware is very important to me. In fact, this has felt like a lot of lesson learning along the way and a very important self actualization journey. And I just knew that for me, the founder role was going to be finite. I never talked about it publicly because who wants to hear, you know, someone who's supposed to be leading them talk about when they're going to leave.
But I would ask myself that. Several times a year in times of crisis and, and in times of, you know, serenity. But I wanted to make sure I was always thinking about the answer to that question. And for me, the time came, I can remember I was standing in the Rose Garden, celebrating the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act that had passed, with President Biden and hundreds of my closest activist friends.
And it just came to me like, this is it. This, this is the bookend for my journey.
So, thinking about that, I mean, I can attest to your selfless leadership, I think, you know, of the organization. I was feels like a long time ago, but chapter lead for Nebraska for moms and was able to witness kind of you in in action at one of the, annual conventions for mom's demand and what was always so beautiful about watching the way that you led, which possibly has so much to do with and how you've left is that it was always about the work. It was never really about you, you were selfless and there and putting your all into it. But it was always about the community. It was always about the volunteers. It was always about the survivors and it was always about policy and change. Um, so I just wanted personally to tell you that that is so appreciated.
That is very kind. That's, that's honestly the best compliment you could pay. It's true.
And I think that there's so many lessons to learn from, from you and your leadership and also your leaving, which is why I wanted to ask, what three words, and this, it might not be words, it might be a phrase or a thought, would you use to describe the process of that decision that you made that day and then kind of what came next in your leaving from your role in at mom's?
Fear. Resolution. Relief. I just want to provide a little context around that: I think the fear was that even though I'd worked very hard to make sure that I didn't have founder syndrome. That isn't to say that my identity was not tied up in the organization. Like who am I now? 10 years, you know, I was 41 years old when I started mom's demand action. And here I am now almost 53. I'm a different person. In so many ways, in so many excellent ways because of, you know, working with the, the volunteers in many ways, I feel like I've touched the divine, you know, in an, on earth.
So there was a lot of trepidation and actually not panic attacks, but I would say some like mild anxiety attacks around who am I without this? But I also have a very wise and supportive husband and, uh, you know, I'm in therapy and. I feel like I am as a grounded as I can be and expected that to happen.
So when it did, it was like, Oh, here it comes. Right. Resolution meaning I had actually made this decision several times before. And then something would happen. And this time I picked up the phone and I called my team and I called the leaders that every town, and I said, like, this is happening. Because I knew if I didn't do that, it would be too easy to, to move backward.
And I knew the time was right. And then relief that is just starting to come now in a lot of ways. I am so excited about what's next for me, even if that's nothing. I, I feel, you know, it's, it's interesting. It's almost like when you end a relationship, like I feel like I have done this as well as I possibly can.
And. I have done it with integrity, and I believe this organization will last into perpetuity. And I also feel like this was the right thing to do, and so I feel a certain amount of relief that I did it in a way that, um, I wanted to do it.
I'm curious if there's anything that you can share kind of on a practical level that might have gone into the decision making or the planning around how your departure was implemented. Is there anything that was, um, a process or a decision that you could share?
Yes, I am, as you can imagine, incredibly, strategic and process oriented. Those are, those are two things that are very important to me and I wanted to leave in that way. Not necessarily everyone at the organization did.
Thankfully, I have a chief of staff who is, we have sort of a mind meld and she and I are cut from the same cloth. And I said to her, I think we tell the team in November. And what I noticed was that like leaders were sort of slow walking it back. I'm not really sure why. Maybe they didn't really want me to leave.
Maybe they thought it was okay if I left in a quiet way. And I felt it was important to me to Again, announce externally that I was leaving and then to have a year's transition so that I could pass the baton publicly to my successor and I had an idea of who that would be at the at the time. And so when the leaders in the organization had done really nothing in 2 months after I told them, I kind of just took it upon myself to, uh, share the story with a reporter friend and to give them first rights to an exclusive and they wrote a beautiful piece in the Washington Post. I was very happy with it. And, you know, that ruffled a few feathers internally, um, that, that I sort of went rogue. I did the exact right thing, it came out exactly the way I wanted it to, and as a result, I have all this runway to say goodbye, to hand the baton over, and also to, you know, make sure that I can start working on my next chapter in a public way too, right?
It's important, for example, I'm going to be writing another book, and I'm going to have to stay in the zeitgeist in some way. So, um, I, I think the lesson I learned through all of that was just.
I had earned the right after a decade of doing this work as a full time volunteer to leave on my own terms.
And when people weren't sort of coming to meet me on that, I did it myself.
I love that so much. And it's, it's an interesting answer to what I was going to ask you next around what is something you've learned about transition that people might be shocked to hear. And I think you've answered that in that a leader can do it on their own terms. It doesn't have to be pre prescribed or even approved necessarily the organization, you know,
Yeah, I think they deserve I think you deserve if you have been leading to do it on your own terms. I think so often women are controlled. Yes And you know, I think i'll be thinking about that and processing that for a long time because even though I was a woman running a women's organization Um, there was a lot of misogyny and a lot of sexism In the organization, in the movement, in the progressive space, even, right?
And I don't think that comes as any surprise, because sexism is systemic. And so there are a lot of times where we have to sort of take it upon ourselves to do what we know is right, as long as we know we're acting with integrity. And the other thing I would just say about the transition process is, it is truly a process.
It isn't unlike grief, Right. There's different stages of how you're going to feel and you really do need to go into it in a way that is grounded. It would have been so easy for me at any time to say, actually, I'm not leaving or to say you're, you're hurting my feelings by not letting me leave the way I want to.
And so therefore I'm not just going to leave in a dramatic or even hurtful way. Right. Those are all just human tendencies. And so I think it isn't just about being strategic about the way you leave, but it's, it's being strategic about. How am I going to handle the emotional impact of leaving something?
Yeah, it's, it's so interesting that you bring that up when I work with clients who are in the process of navigating a workplace transition, that's the thing that they're least aware is going to be such a huge part is the grief and the navigating the emotions. And even that, even when you think you've gone through one of the phases, it will come back. Yes. Over and over, you know, in kind of a wave. Um, so I'm glad that you brought that up. What are you walking towards? I know you said you're going to be writing another book, but what are you walking towards in terms of maybe yourself personally for yourself as you continue processing this transition?
And I guess a secondary question to that, if you're willing to answer, is what advice would you give to someone who also is in a grassroots space or in an organizing space, where sometimes you feel that if you leave or when you leave, all the work could crumble. So I'm wondering what advice you would give.
I guess the first thing I would say is what I'm walking toward, I can't even tell you how many people. I spoke with from therapists to energy workers, to friends and family who said, take a year. Don't do anything. Just rest. You deserve to rest. You can't make any decisions about what's next unless you recuperate, get your energy back.
Of course, you know. I think just a couple of months after I announced that I was leaving, I got a call from a woman who runs a book imprint and said, you know, I really would love for you to write something about leadership or women and women's power. And that was so. Right up my alley that I said, yes, and, you know, now there are other discussions like speaking engagements around that and podcasts and I don't, I don't know what's going to come out of it.
I'm exploring it. I'm trying to hold it loosely so that if these things don't come to fruition, you know, I am just going back to my. Prescription of rest and relaxation. I'm 52 years old. I feel like I've done the big thing and whatever else I do is sort of, you know, gilding the lily in my life.
Thankfully I have, you know, a wonderful husband. I have five grown children and look forward to spending more time with them. So I, I am hopeful that this book comes to fruition. I've already started writing it in terms of advice for other people who. Need to take a break or leave or step away from some kind of leadership position or even just a volunteer position in grassroots.
There's so many thoughts I have. You know, one is that there's a saying about, you know, you don't have to do the work to its completion. You just have to take a part of it. And after 11 years, I spent so much time telling people and urging them on and saying that, you know, I was so committed and involved and I was, but it wasn't until I stepped back that I realized how burned out I was.
Yeah. I think that that. That's important that you have to acknowledge that and you're not really good to yourself or your family or community or your organization. If you're doing this work in a burned out state, and sometimes stepping away temporarily or permanently is what's needed. And the other thing I would say is just like, there's an era for every organization.
I'm having all these interesting discussions because, you know, moms do an action now is. 11 years old. And when I started in my kitchen and called it Moms Demand Action, it was because Moms Mothers Against Drunk Driving was so influential to me, having grown up in the eighties. But like, that's not what's going to make sense necessarily for my kids generation.
And maybe the name will change eventually, maybe, you know, it morphs into something else. I don't know. I mean, again, going back to this Buddhist concept of Nothing lasts forever, right? We want to grow and evolve. So I think we have to be comfortable with the work we're doing changing and believing that it'll continue if not in the form it's in and in another form.
Yeah, there's a there's a quote that I love that comes to mind as I hear you talk that's from Virginia Woolf and it's arrange whatever pieces come your way. And that is so resonant to me because it does change the work changes what what our impact should be or how it should be connected changes. So I appreciate you saying that.
So, Shannon, as we wrap up leaving well, as I define it, and as I work with clients is the art and practice of leaving a role, a project, a job with intention and when possible joy. So, as we close, I'd love, uh, my final question to you being, what does leaving well mean to you? Something that you haven't already shared.
I think it's doing it without any harm. It's doing it with integrity, and there's so many human emotions that go into leaving something. And it's, I think, very easy to succumb to those and even temporarily making you feel better. But you have to do not just what's best for you, but also what's best for the organization.
Sometimes and I would say actually all the time that takes asking other people to hold you accountable. You know, I have said to my husband many times, am I doing this in a way that is ethical or in keeping with the way I've run the organization. And, you know, there have been times he said to me, Oh, I don't think you should say or do that.
And there've been times I've said to him, like, when you tell me this, it makes me feel this way. And, and I worry that it's going to make me make a bad decision. Right. So I think it's just a dialogue that you constantly have to be having with yourself and with other people so that you're held accountable.
I am getting ready to go to Gun Sense University. It'll be my very last speech there as a leader. And. Instead of celebrating the wins they had this year, that that honor goes to my successor. I will be talking about the lessons I've learned and that we've learned together and what I'm taking away and what I'm so thankful for, for this organization for, for bringing to me and what I hope that, that the volunteers have taken away from my leadership.
And I think that's the, you know, we're all imperfect. We're going to, we're going to fall and stumble and make mistakes, but as much as. You can leave knowing that you've protected yourself and protected the work you've done. That's the most we can ask for.
Yeah, that's incredible. I really do appreciate your ability to normalize by doing it publicly, your leaving, modeling the concept of leaving well. So much. Oh, I really appreciate that. Shannon, thanks so much for this conversation, for your impact and your imprint in the world. I really appreciate you and your willingness to have this conversation. Thank you. To learn more about Shannon and where you can find her and news of her upcoming book, please visit the show notes to subscribe to her sub stack.
And you'll also be able to have all the links to follow her on social media, a link to purchase her first book, fight like a mother will also be in a show notes. To learn more about leaving well and how you can implement and embed the framework and culture in your own life and workplace, visit naomihattaway.com. It's time for each of us to look ourselves in the mirror and finally admit we are playing a powerful role in the system. We can either exist outside of our power or choose to decide to shift culture and to create transformation. Until next time, I'm your host. Naomi Hattaway, and you've been listening to Leaving Well, a navigation guide for workplace transitions.
